HJ DJ entrenching spade M8/16b ?

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papa1965

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Hallo guys!
This is my first message on your forum.
I have a small riveted shovel /6 rivets / with a Malta Cross in a Circle logo and a marking M8/16b.
Is it a HJ or perhaps DJ shovel? Thank you!

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Hi there,

According to the book "'Die Deutsche Werkzeugindustrie" from 1942 only two makers were using the Johanniter cross back then:
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Engstfeld & Co in Oberbrügge, Westf
CA Hüchelbach in Remscheid-Hasten.

See here.

If you can't see "CAH" next to the cross then the maker may be Engstfeld. I don't have an RZM M8 list but I'm sure that either Jo Rivett or Wim Saris here on the forum will be able to confirm or deny whether M8/16 was indeed Engstfeld (and explain that "b").

The official DJ spade had six rivets where yours only has 5 but if you compare the total length of your spade to the measurements in post #2 above that would be useful. The official 1936-> DJ and HJ spades had an impressed RJF/RZM stamp on the blade but I don't know whether the DJ spade was introduced in 1936 or a little earlier. An earlier DJ may not have the stamp. Anyway, looking forward to hearing about the measurements and thanks for showing the spade.

Another thread concerning the official HJ and DJ spades: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f38/hj-trenching-spade-spaten-your-thoughts-7146/
 

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Hi Garry,

I thank you for comments. Indeed, I knew about Engsfeld earlier. I attache here after it's logo, in case of somebody does not have
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it.
There is no "CAH" marking next to the cross and I' ve never seen it on those photos , I have, with this Johanniter Cross .If it will be interesting for the members to see it -I ll do , just let me know in comments.:001_smile:
As for my shovel's dimensions , they rather coincide with those existing in post 2 of this Thread: length
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47 cm -metal part about 17.5 cm and width 13.5 cm. See here in comparison with the standard WWI and WWII Wehrmacht shovels:




I remark , in my researches on the Internet Militaria Forums and Auction sales Forums, I saw those different small shovels / Johanniter, Enders, ACE im Pic/ in Red and Sky Blue colors. One said also them to belong to HJ in general. If you are interested in it , I will post pics of them.
That's all for a moment. I thank all of those who will comment on some points of this message.:france
 

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8/16 indeed is Engstfeld & Co, GmbH from Bollwerk in Westfalen. As such but indeed with the "b" it is noted
in the 1938 RZM manufacturers-list: M8/16b.

For what the "b" stands for I cannot find in the related sources, but it might be it stands for the category of spades.
Also in other M-groups such letters do exist and then mean a specific item or items. There is another concern
which has the "b", but also one which has an "a". Seven manufacturers just do have their permission-number.
 
wilhelm, thank you,
Could you sent me a link or a file for this List RZM , please.
As for other marking , I have a photo which have M8/16 4?. Or I am mistaken .And it is a part of other figure or letter...
Here it is:

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Hallo Garry,
thank you for the link- it is a tentation , but the price is a cold shover. :huh:.
I will certainly post my photos directly, without a link for a Cloud storage ,sorry!
 
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