Real DJ Snare Drum?

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Hi Guys
I am new to this Forum and I would like to share one of my newest additions to my collection.From the best of my knowledge and what I was told by the person I bought it from,this is a Hitler Youth DJ snare drum. Got it as you see here with the hanger and stick holder and was purchased from a Military store in Austria. The drum isin Great shape with no holes in the heads or splits in the rims. The Drum measures32cm in Diameter and 14cm high. Painted in the DJ pattern (black and white) butcan see that it was painted in the HJ pattern of red and white at one timeunder the black paint, but they did a nice job with the cover-up. The heads are made from some kind of animalskin, because I can still see small hairs in areas. Snare wire are made of metal, even thought I have heard they should have been cat-gut, I have seen several originalphotos ( some on this forum) that show them to be more like you see here. There are no markings anywhere on the outsideof the drum, but after opening it up I discover some writing inside on thebrass ring. The word, “Relul” ?? Is thissomebody’s name? Or even a real word? Is it German or something else? Can anyonetell me if this could be from the correct era and or an original item? Any opinions or comments on this Drum would bea big help. I also am sharing this photothat I got that shows the DJ using the same kind of snare drum. Thanks


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DJ Snare Drum, More Pics

More pics...same drum...dean427

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Hi,

We have a few threads on the drums and they are usually problematic because these side drums (Marschtrommel) were used before during and indeed after the war by various formations. Here's an example of one of threads where they were discussed: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f38/snare-drum-any-good-5203/ That thread gives a few pointers to consider and also gives the official size and colour of the standard Marschtrommel used by the HJ (red/white). If you search the forum you'll find other threads.

To the colours on your drum: the musical unit exclusive to the DJ was the Fanfarenzug and they only had two instruments. These were the fanfare and the large drum (Landsknechtstrommel). The Marschtrommel was carried by the HJ within their musical units (Spielmannszug and Musikzug) and the regulation quoted in the thread I referenced above shows that the colours on the tensioning ring were red/white and not black/white.

Going back to 1933 and the book "Die Uniformen der HJ", the Marschtrommel is attributed only to the HJ and is shown as red/white. The equivalent page in that book for the DJ shows that the DJ drum was the Landsknechtstrommel with black/white on the tensioning ring. So, certainly as far as the above-mentioned period documentation goes, the drum you show there can't be a Jungvolk item. Your photo does show DJ members playing the Marschtrommel but we would need to know more about the circumstances behind the photo in order to establish why. This boy describes how he originally played with the DJ Fanfarenzug but that he joined the HJ Spielmannszug a few weeks later. This seems to show that DJ boys did indeed play the Marschtrommel (see next post for more on this) but the reference is not of course sufficient to show that their Marschtrommel were black/white or indeed what formation he played in.

What I would need to look at are the DJ Spielmannszüge which are DJ musical units units attributable to the later period. Looking into those may show that they used black/white Marschtrommel but let me see what I have here in the way of documentation and I'll get back to you here.
 
A Reichsbefehl dated 5.9.1941 and a period publication "Der Dienst in den Musikeinheiten der HJ" dated 1.10.41 are given as the references in a section of regulations concerning the musical units of the HJ and DJ and there it is stated that the raising of DJ SZ was forbidden. A further reference is in the book "Dienstvorschrift - Ausgabe DJ-Führerschaft" from Gebiet 19 Hochland from 1941 which gives a description of the DJ music units. In this book, the Spielmannszug (SZ) is, as expected, described as primarily a HJ formation and that a similar unit for the DJ was only to be raised in exceptional circumstances i.e. where there was no HJ SZ. Nevertheless, the provision exists and so where there was a sufficient number of musically proficient DJ boys (35 to 40) and no HJ SZ, the Bann had the facility to request authorisation from the Gebiet to raise a DJ SZ.

So, we know that the DJ SZ is a valid formation, although rare, but does this necessarily mean that the drummers within one carried black/white Marschtrommel? The DJ-Führerschaft book I mentioned states that all instruments for any DJ SZ raised were to be procured through the Bann and that they were to be regulation items. The regulation however, says that a compliant Marschtrommel had a red/white tensioning ring (there is no mention of a black/white Marschtrommel for DJ SZ) so when we consider that a DJ SZ could only be formed in exceptional circumstances and that it wasn't anything more than a replacement for the HJ equivalent anyway, we must logically conclude that they would carry the regulation red/white HJ Marschtrommel.

All of this leaves us with only two possibilities in my opinion: black/white Marschtrommel may be repainted HJs or they have nothing to do with the DJ and were painted by another organisation, possibly even in the post-war period.
 
Garry,…Great info and a lot to digest. Thanks for doing so much research and I have actually been doing a lot on my own but with limited resources. At the end of the day your conclusions is right in line with mine. Which is why I looked so hard to find that Photo of the DJ actually using these drums. Only problem this that it’s hard to tell if the drum is Black & White or Red & White in a BW photo. If you look real close in this photo you can see the rest of the DJ instruments the Fanfare and large drum. This group even though it is a division of the HJ, looks a lot like they were modeled after the SS ,and with that being said one would think a very high sense of pride would come with this. My thoughts are…, even though there is no documentation that this unit had any black and white snares you would think they would have to have had them in order to keep a more uniform flow. After all the Musical unit of the SS marched with Black & White pattern Marschtrommel . As far as the repaint, if these drums were not used as frequently like you suggest, then it would only made sense to adapt the HJ drums as needed. I found this pic on this forum showing a page from Angolia,s Book? I don’t know if this is a reliable source but it shows another pic of the DJ using these drums and tells us that they are Black & White. Again don’t know if this is a reliable source but would be interested in your comments. Also what are your thoughts on the scrip inside this drums?
Relul ??????? Can anybody tell me what this could be or mean. I may not be spelling it right.
Thanks

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Hi Dean,

Yes, as you say, impossible to tell from the photo whether these are black/white or red/white markings.

I wouldn't agree with your point that the DJ was modelled on the SS though. The DJ was quite different in character to the HJ, particularly in the beginning, as this translation of a section from Brandenburg's 1968 book 'Die Geschichte der Hitlerjugend' shows. That book explains that the flag with silver Sigrune on a black background had been in use as a formation symbol by the DJ prior to them being incorporated into the HJ in March 1931 and that they were permitted by the RJF to continue using it. As I understand it, the SS didn't start using the double Sigrune until 1933 which must mean that the SS stole the Sigrune idea from the Jungvolk and not the other way around :)

I don't own the Angolia books but if he doesn't have a footnote showing a reference for that assumption then in my opinion it is nothing more than a guess. The writing inside the drum doesn't make any sense to me either unfortunately..

I hope that further information on these black/white drums will turn up at some point.
 
No probs Dean. As I say, the drum may well be fine but I don't currently know of any primary literature that would support the idea of black/white for the DJ Marschtrommel but let's see whether the combined resources of the forum can turn something up. I'm not the only one here who enjoys poking around in the old books and regulations :)
 
I found some photos on my hard drive that might be useful to the discussion of whether the DJ carried black/white Marschtrommel at some point. These are are from a set taken during the "Pfingsttreffen des Jungbann II/40" in Cham in 1934. If you look at the drums carried by the boys in the first pic (those in the forward section behind the fanfare players) and then compare the depth of darkness on the tensioning ring pattern compared to the drums carried by the boys in the second photo you can definitely see a difference. Red/white on the first photo and black/white on the second perhaps? These boys are all from the DJ so it doesn't actually make sense that half of their side drums would be red/white and the other half black/white but hey, the photos are a lead :)

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Garry, what a great find. I think your pic is amazing!! Yes your right I do see the difference in the shades between the red and what could be black drums. Your pic also shows a good use of the imperial type hanger. Also if you look at the very last drum that is being carried in the second group , you can see that this is smaller then the rest, and also looking very similar to the drum that I have posted. Count the number of black triangles between the tensioning rods.
anyway, great find and great detective work. Still like to know what the scrip "Relul" means or if am-
even spelling it right. Looks like the U is German. Can any one comment on this or maybe more on the drum?
Thanks again Garry. I,ll be sure the keep you posted if I can find any more info....Dean
 
Can any one comment on this
Could be a Ü umlaut, but it does not make any sense in German, neither Relul nor Relül are a name. Neither is Rewl which it could also be. Looks like it has been penned in magic marker!
 
Hello,
Could the name be Relüi,not that this is a propper name in Germany either,but might get you any further (might be a foreign name ?).
greets cardon
 
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