HJ pennant (no RZM, is it authentic?...opinions welcome!)

Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
151
Thanks Received
67
Hi all,

I thought I would offer up my first questionable item for the forums opinions on authenticity.

I will hold no ill-will to anyone who believes it to be inauthentic, I am really just wanting learned opinions!

I recently found this piece, and due to it's lack of RZM label, I am slightly questioning its authenticity. The quality looks good, and it is very nicely double sided, and the stitching appears similar to authentic armbands...but, as I have learned, you never know:confused1:

Here are some pics, thanks for all opinions.

Thanks,
Craig

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
this is a tough one craig,.it could be a bicycle pennant,.did you do a burn test on the stitching/material or a blacklight test on the material.the black stitching on the corners could very well be post war applied for display purpose',.it has some age to it.do some tests & well go from there.

si
 
Hi wingman,

I need to find my blacklight, that would at least tell me something right away.

I noticed that I did not give any idea of the size in my photo's. So here it is with a buckle for reference. The size indicates that it could be a bicycle pennant. Or, it could be as fake as a three dollar bill. But like you said, I need to black light it to see what's what.

You don't have permission to view attachments.



I will update this thread with the results.

Thanks for your input!

-Craig
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
The small pennant looks good ...used most likley on a bicycle ...The black light test isnt always accurate , if an item is washed with modern detergent it can cause it to glow .
 
Hi joecool,

Thanks for your input. I have heard that about the detergent effect on cloth. From the general construction of the pennant flag, it seems authentic, but an RZM tag would have set my mind more at ease.

I have read that these small flags were used on bicycles. But this seemed like the right place to get some experienced opinions on the piece.

Thanks for chiming in.

And, I welcome anyone/everyone else is also welcome to add their opinions. Like I said, no ill will to anyone who has evidence that it may be inauthentic. This is all about getting to the history of the piece.

-Craig
 
This is neither here nor there, just by coincidence, I spotted this small pennant in the picture below. What does it mean? What is the significance? Nothing:noidea:

But, just thought I'd share it. Yeah, it's a slow Sunday...:bored:

You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
i would do burn tests on stitching & material,as we all know the RZM pennants were made with the metal clips or rings on the hoist',.the larger pennants/flags were made with re-enforced tips,.smaller pennants not so much.i have a dutch JM pennant with metal clips on the hoist & a re-enforced tip,.origional but not RZM regulation.so imo your small pennant,.the make looks definetly of period with the embroidered swastika & compared to the size of known origionals seems to fit.after a burn test on material & research on size,.on regulation RZM & non regulation bicycle pennents,.if these all check out ok i would say its an origional non regulation bicycle pennant,.or just a small pennant,.i have attatched a picture of a small pennant from steve's HJ bunker for comparison,& another picture from my archives of some kids small pennants on bicycles & even a scooter,.steves seems to be about the same size as yours,.but i think its RZM piece,.maybe get in touch with him.where did you get this pennent?? if you purchased it from a respectable dealer thats a big plus also.best of luck i look forward to your results.

si

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Origional HJ Bicycle pennants

here are a few examples of origional HJ Bicycle pennants,a couple of the examples i have shown are in collections on this forum.note the rings on the hoist i believe these to be RZM regulation.on a non regulation piece the use of rope is also used.i am trying to find the measurements of RZM regulation wimpel & bicycle pennants.

http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f40/weekend-purchase-hitler-youth-bicycle-pennant-7548/

si

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Hi Wingman!

Thank you so much for the photo's. The construction does indeed look correct when comparing the two, except for the cloth rings to hold the metal hoist rings.

Please describe the 'burn test' you referenced. I don't mean to be a bother, but as I am familiar with the black light properties and tests, I am unfamiliar with the 'burn test'.

I am anxious to perform any type of relevent testing to either authenticate, or prove the item fake.

Thanks for your help!

-Craig
 
well the way i was told it worked was,.modern synthetic cotton will melt & pure cotton will burn,.back in the day (in the third reich) cotton was used for material for flags & stitching,.it was pure cotton,.nowdays synthetic cotton is more commonly used.so gingerly try to get a piece of cotton from the stitching or if possible a piece from the material from the pennant,.i usually get a piece about 5-6mm,.& burn it.if it melts its synthetic cotton & most likely more modern,if it burns its pure cotton,.try get a roll of modern day synthetic cotton & burn it some to see how it melts & then get a piece of your stitching on your pennant & compare the results.i would start with the black cotton on the corners.if you cant get a piece of cotton from the centre diamond without breaking the thread,i would not worry about it & start somewhere else.

si
 
imo i think the pennant is origional,.& origionally had two rings on the hoist & possibly one on the tip.its just a non RZM regulation,home made pennant for a bicycle or just a small penant,.just by looking at the size,centre diamond & overall make of the pennant i think its ok.but the burn test will give you confirmation on origionallity.other than just doing more research & a burn test & comparing to known origionals there is not much else you can do.but there is a few lads on here that have not commented who may be more of help,.so if you feel you need that final confirmation.search their bicycle pennant posts & sent them a private msg for their opinion.but i think its ok.

cheers,
si
 
fake HJ bicycle pennant

here is a horrible modern fake HJ bicycle pennant,.just for a comparison.your pennant is definetly of higher quality

si

You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Hi Wingman,

In answer to an earlier question, I acquired this piece from one of my more trusted dealers.

Hi Wingman,

As for the burn test, I have tried it with the black threads attached to the corners of the flag, the thread DEFINITELY burn, not melt.

I am hesitant to try to grab any threads that are attached well to the piece, as it is in pretty good shape, and do not want to damage it.

I am reasonably sure of the pieces authenticity, but am open to any more comments or suggestions from the group.

-Craig
 
here is a horrible modern fake HJ bicycle pennant,.just for a comparison.your pennant is definetly of higher quality

si

I agree, my example looks NOTHING like that, as you put it, 'HORRIBLE' fake.

If mine is not authentic, the maker went to much more time and trouble trying to fool a collector.
 
yeah,.i would not be pulling on the thread,.i think you got yourself a nice HJ bicycle pennant.

cheers
si
 
These small pennants are often difficult. HJ bicycle pennants were under RZM control from 17.10.1935 but I don't have any manufacturing instructions for them so can't post any dimensions. However, the SA bicycle pennant was 15cm x 21cm so any HJ pennant much bigger than that is very unlikely to be for a bicycle.
 
These small pennants are often difficult. HJ bicycle pennants were under RZM control from 17.10.1935 but I don't have any manufacturing instructions for them so I can't post any dimensions for them. However, the SA bicycle pennant was 15cm x 21cm so any HJ pennant bigger than that is very unlikely to be for a bicycle.

Well, this piece is 12cm x 24cm so it seems about bicycle size.
 
Back
Top