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  1. #1

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    Pennants (Wimpel) BDM Mädelgruppe 3/362 and Jungmädelgruppe 11/B4

    Just purchased these 2 pennants. Going by the HJ book 3 is erlin but do not have info on unit 362 area etc. 11 is Aachen and the book says that the old Bann units in Bavaria went by B1, B2, B3 etc. Very cool that they removed the old unit assignment and added the new.

    What are they worth? I got a good deal but I have not seen more than 2 or 3 for sale in the past months. thanks all

    MAY 2012 HJ 002.jpgMAY 2012 HJ 003.jpgMAY 2012 HJ 004.jpgMAY 2012 HJ 005.jpg

  2. #2
    No doubts on that one, 100% original all the way. Great looking Wimpel. As a Full Member you have access to these lists here to determine location of the Jungmädel Gruppe. The BDM and JM units numbers are the same as the HJ and DJ Banns and Jungbanns.

    Hitler Youth Bann number lists - Area triangle lists - Hitler Youth Forum

  3. #3
    I agree, nice pennants

    As Darin says, we have lists which help to identify the units. Please go here first for an explanation of the lists. The items you have there are:

    Jungmädel pennant for Jungmädelgruppe 11, JM-Untergau B4
    BDM pennant for BDM-Mädelgruppe 3, BDM-Untergau 362

    The lists will give you the geographical area covered by 362 and B4.

    The B4 Wimpel is interesting. As you say, the 'B4' has been unpicked but not replaced and this is likely to go back to 1.1.1936 when the 'B' units were fully reorganised and brought into line with the standard numbering system. However, that Bann location does not appear in the list for that year so it is possible that Bann B4 was disbanded or amalgamated with another Bann within Gebiet Franken thereby rendering the Wimpel redundant. I'm looking into that now.

  4. #4
    Quick update:

    Bann B4 was disbanded and did not return until 1942 when it was renumbered to 916. It was forbidden by regulation to unpick the numbers on these flags and pennants so a possible scenario is that the intention was to reuse it but that permission was denied leaving the Wimpel in that configuration. Interesting item. Thanks for showing it.

  5. #5

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    thanks for the info i have looked at 1 list are there separate # lists for bdm vs HJ units ? i thought the area #'s would be the same IE berlin ect. ?

  6. #6
    The numbers are the same for all HJ, DJ, BDM, and JM units.

  7. #7
    The Gebiete are the same for all formations i.e. Gebiet 3 is the same for all formations. The Bann number shown in the lists is for the HJ but the DJ, BDM and the JM came under the same number so you would have HJ Bann 399, BDM Untergau 399 and so on. All you need to do is to find the Bann number in the lists and then you'll have the correct administrative area for all formations of the Hitler Youth.

    Different terminology was used for the higher level formations at different times during the TR period, particularly early and late in the period when organisational changes necessitated disbandment and reorganisations. If you need information on that we'd be happy to assist.

  8. #8
    We got here at the same time Darin :)

  9. #9

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    i thought the top # was the area and the lower was the unit within that area

  10. #10

    As I mentioned in post 2, what you have there are pennants for:

    Jungmädelgruppe 11, JM-Untergau B4
    BDM-Mädelgruppe 3, BDM-Untergau 362

    The principle is the same for both pennants and indeed for the HJ and DJ flags but let's take the Jungmädel pennant and use that to illustrate how the numbers worked.

    The attachment shows an organisational chart from 1935 showing all organisational structures within the Hitler Youth at around the time your JM pennant was in use. Going from smallest unit to largest here's what the chart shows for the JM:

    Jungmädelschaft consisting of around 10 girls.
    Jungmädelschar (consists of 4 Jungmädelschaften, so 40 girls)
    Jungmädelgruppe (consists of 4 Jungmädelscharen) This is the level represented by your pennant (your BDM pennant represents the equivalent organisational level within the BDM structure).
    Jungmädelring (consists of 3-5 Jungmädelgruppen)
    Jungmädeluntergau (consists of 4-6 Jungmädelringe) (this is the highest level of pennant carried)
    Obergau (consists of 20 Jungmädeluntergaue and BDM Untergaue).

    There were only two organisational levels which were authorised to carry pennants with the the stitched number system: Jungmädelgruppe and Jungmädeluntergau (where yours has 11/B4 the Jungmädeluntergau pennant would have had B4). Within the BDM the organisational levels authorised to carry pennants with the stitched numbering system were BDM-Untergau and BDM-Mädelgruppe.

    There were changes to this structure in later years (in earlier years it had been different too) but these two organisational levels remained the only ones authorised to carry pennants with this numbering system.


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