NPEA Oranienstein embroidered triangle

Understood but that doesn't apply to the Hitler Youth whose whole ethos was that youth was led by youth and that all were equal. Von Schirach allowed every member of the youth from the youngest Pimpf right up to his Stabsführer to address him with 'du' rather than the formal 'Sie' (du and Sie equate to 'you'). Very unusual but a strong outward signal that he, although the overall leader, was 'one of them'. I still have my reservations about the triangle as mentioned earlier because it seems too 'pompous'. I think a picture of one in wear would be very useful here.
 
This forum is a place to study the different aspects of the HJ who was not an army but a youth organisation.

The use of a uniform in a youth organisaton has 3 functions :
_the young knows and shows to what he belongs.
_the young learns that he is only a part of the group. he needs the others and the others need him.
_the young, because of the same clothes for all, is no more the son of a poor or the son of a rich.

It's the same with scouting and in many country's schools, as you know.

Nothing to do with an army and the commonly accepted fantasy of his heroes and leaders.


 
there was a picture posted not long ago of a group of leaders at a rally . They where all wearing stab triangles and one was definitely higher quality wire embroidered . As I said before the patina on this and quality is not duplicated today . I don't throw my cash away on dreams. I know many of the foreign triangles are made of this similar design ie non bevo weave and they are now considered correct Mostly ! . This forum will drag out more example I am sure:canada:
 
This forum is a place to study the different aspects of the HJ who was not an army but a youth organisation.

The use of a uniform in a youth organisaton has 3 functions :
_the young knows and shows to what he belongs.
_the young learns that he is only a part of the group. he needs the others and the others need him.
_the young, because of the same clothes for all, is no more the son of a poor or the son of a rich.

It's the same with scouting and in many country's schools, as you know.

Nothing to do with an army and the commonly accepted fantasy of his heroes and leaders.



I think this is all very nice in the real world but in the 40s the HJ was nothing more than a training ground for new cannon fodder and to say the above credo was valid is rubbish IMO

:canada:
 
Thanks for opening us the eyes ! Tell us more, please.

And now, without joking : We all know the end of the story but at the beginning nobody did. OK ?
Going to the HJ was, for a young, like going to the scouts. At this age, a young (even a german) was very seldom interested with politics.
The adults had certainly other concepts about the youth but you must admit that camping, sport, music, modelling and even flying or sailing were certainly the best way to make the boys and the girls be happy to be there and that's what happened. You should read some books...

 
I have read the books and what you put foreward is the pre war ideals of the youth. If you read the books you will notice the pictures are after 39 of youth with machine guns camouflaged throwing stick grenades and also the books tell us membership became compulsory also more of the leaders where wounded war vets right ?

:canada:
 
This is what the Saris reference says in regard to a triangle similar to this on page 521. Some will agree with Saris and some will not agree with him. For me, I just don't know.

"Regulations did not address the subject of hand embroidered triangles, but it was probably privately done by some leaders. This original spcimen for NPEA Ornienstein has the silver wire, hand embroidered lettering. Note the edging which is also silver wire. This triangle is worn on a tunic which still has the earlier shown aluminum hand embroidered shoulder straps. NPEA triangles with embroidered lettering of all kinds have been reproduced since about 2004 to include silver or aluminum wire versions. They are easy to identify, however because of the wrong material used and the wrong form of lettering."

Saris credits Phillipe Gillian for the example shown in the book. From the passage above Saris seems to alude to the fact that the example shown is attached to a uniform but does not clearly state that it is. It would have been nice to see photos of the uniform that he aludes to in the book.

I respect both the opinions of Paul and Debertex on these type of items. While I don't collect triangles, I've seen some very odd things regarding shoulder straps and even have some really strange examples in my own collection.
 
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the odd and unusual is what make the hunt most fun. I am the last person to want junk in his collection but am sold on this triangle having it in hand. If any viewer has more info and does have hand made examples in their collection please post .


:canada:
 
Hi,
I agree with debertex and Darin. I would like to add that this triangle has been made by a tailor. I am sure this is not an official but private item. It is genuine for me 100%. I also wish to greet Phillippe Gilain for such knowledge in this area.:yo:
Best regards
Eric
 
Hi Paul,
I meet Helmut Weitze next week and I shall ask him for the photographic information. He sold many things to Mr Phillippe Gilain in the past, what explains the wealth of its collection.:hail:
Regards
 
One important detail to remember ....

The NPEA educational system is not an HJ educational system .

The NPEA was an educational system for youths who were the elite of the HJ , these schools were directly sponsored by the SS . As such they were not strictly under HJ control , but more-so than not under SS control.

These schools were for honor students who were at the top of there class and would have been chosen to have the honor to attend an NPEA school .

The administration staff of these schools would have been hand picked from the SS and Political leadership system .

Now for a staff leader in an NPEA school , it is not surprising to see some insignia made up private purchase to show his level of rank and command the respect of that rank .

If you look at the NPEA 4 pocket tunic ...it is styled in the same cut as the black SS open collar uniform . except it is an olive-brown/green ( like the RAD color for uniforms) with a black open collar .
 
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Don't we have any former HJ members on the board?
All this disagreement about what was and was not allowed, repeating hearsay, is so divisive. It could all have been cleared up decades ago by people who were members and who know.
 
Don't we have any former HJ members on the board?
All this disagreement about what was and was not allowed, repeating hearsay, is so divisive. It could all have been cleared up decades ago by people who were members and who know.

Thanks to concider my questions about historical items and their use as a disagreement ! but as you're surely a beginner, even asking if an old gentleman, remembering all these details perfectly, used to go through (the majority of confirmed collectors and historians don't not even arise over this issue since decades) and you also certainly never belonged to a hierarchical organization otherwise you will know how the regulations are important, so that's not a problem.

... and, me too, I'm waiting with impatience for the pictures because, me too wants to know.
 
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I take Joe's point and would agree that the relationship between HJ and NPEA is not so clear-cut that we can use HJ clothing regulations to decide whether this triangle is real or not. The fact remains though that as far as the HJ was concerned this triangle does not comply with regulation and must therefore be questioned in order that we learn more about it and items like it which don't meet expectations.

There are some who say 'yes regulations are fine but we know that they weren't always followed'. Fair enough but the simple fact is that these regulations exist and we can't simply ignore them because to do so is to ignore THE most important source of irrefutable evidence we have.

As far as the triangle is concerned I agree with Debertex that a period picture which clearly shows the triangle in wear is what we need. Anything else is pure conjecture and as such will not get us any nearer reaching a consensus and therefore adding useful information to the forum knowledge-base.
 
Although not a triangle, it is an illustration of a "tailored" (for lack of a better word) NPEA insignia in silver wire. This NPEA strap appears to be a non RZM hand embriodered strap. Compared side by side to an RZM pattern strap just for illustration.

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And now a basic student with embroidered insignias !!! Isn't that a problem for you too, Darin ?
 
And now a basic student with embroidered insignias !!! Isn't that a problem for you too, Darin ?

I would agree with you that a basic student probably would not have hand embroidered insignia, yes. This photo is from the Saris book, and is possibly the uniform that Saris mentions when writing about the triangle. It is an item credited to Phillipe Gillian. It would be great if he were here to comment on the discussion.
 
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