Von Shirach and Axmann - meetings and correspondence

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Well I come from a long military line going back over half the Christian age. The family name came to the UK with the Norman invasion in 1066 but has roots older than that in central France. The other side of the family goes back to the earliest records and has always been involved in the military.

The family has served the crown pretty much since it invaded. Be that fighting in the Crusades up to ladies in waiting to the late Queen Mother. On the losing side in the civil war and all the way through the Napoleonic wars, the Boar war the Indian mutiny, the war of Independence, the boxer rebellion basically any conflict and we were there.

World war two the family was in every theater, 9 uncles and 2 grand parents, with the most notable being Great Uncle Pat who made fame with his adventures in Crete, Patrick Leigh Fermor – the film ‘Ill Met By Moonlight’. Who I had lunch with last year after the Armistice parade in Athens; which he was too frail to attend.

My late Father left the army joined the TA and was a cadet instructor. My earliest memories are of him and the other instructors coming home and talking about the war, he served in Far East and they across the whole globe. My uncle Jim, the cadets stores sergeant, joined the army at the age of 14 in 1887 and talked and talked about his time in WW1 endlessly

My Grandfather, a lifer in the army, serving in WW1 with Jan Smuts in German South West Africa, he was stationed in India and Ceylon ( as was ) as a Major and later Colonel in the Royal Engineers, my mother was born there and bought up in the last days of the raj before the start of WW2. His last words to me as a boy of 10 were ‘Follow the Colours my lad, follow the Colours’, which I did. I have his medals and citations, and although I should hand it in his service revolver from WW1.

I arrived in the June of 1958, I was taken to my first Armistice parade in the November and I have not missed one since. My mother insisted and my father would not have believed a family member would not go.

So what has all this to with collecting HJ. Well I suppose you could call it genetic, or maybe because my first girl friend at school her father being a former HJ had something to do with it. Or the man who serviced my Fathers car, ex-RAD and HJ, or the ex-Latvian SS guy who worked in a local shop, or knowing one of the cameramen from Riefenstahl ‘Olympiad’ living next to the local pub....who knows.

Back then these guys were the teachers and Doctors; the average guys around towns across the country that we all knew; the ‘real’ vets were the boys from WW1 and before. Remember WW2 was about long ago as the Falklands are today.

I have no idea why that part of Buckinghamshire should have had so many guys like this around, I know there was an Italian POW camp nearby and I knew many of them that stayed on after the war, but Germans I have no idea why. Especially as Bletchley park was less than a mile from our house.

So when other kids were getting action man toys for Christmas I was getting bayonets and badges. They got bikes and go karts I got books on military history. I got my first army dagger at the age 12 and for my 21st a chained SS.

All the local junk shops and markets had WW2 stuff and could not shift it, I spent every penny I had on it and I bought some right old rubbish as well as some nice rare bits, although that was not known at the time of course. Everyone knew that anything military was of interest and that meant that when people cleared out sheds and garages all the old 'crap' headed my way. My poor mother was driven to distraction. She drew the line at fire arms and I was not allowed to keep either of the K98's or the Luger that I was given. My first HJ item came that way, it was a tinnie, 1938 I seem to recall.

One school project I did was a series of interviews with boys from WW1 with photos and with tape recorded interviews with several of them – I still have the old reel to reel tapes somewhere and several sets of the 'pip squeak and wilfred' medals and pay books, along with letters home and all sorts of personal stuff that they gave me. No one was really that overly interested in it back then. These were the days when Armistice parades were attended by very few and frowned upon by the many.

I realised pretty early on that these men were not immortal and one day they would all be gone. I started to talk to as many as I could, making notes and copying photos, with my uncles captured war booty Lieca of all things. Before long I looked towards the German forces and started to write to many of them, finding them was not so easy back then and I am still grateful to the then West German government for their help in tracking down many of my requests.

At first I went for the big names Dönitz - Speer - von Manteuffel - Warlimont – Galland and so on all of whom replied and were helpful and polite. Rommels son, Manfred, refused to tell me what he has in the family bank vault of his fathers – the rumours are many and varied.

I had a polite refusal from Riefenstahl and not so polite refusals from the Russians on behalf of Hess, one letter returned ripped into shreds, which I still have somewhere

I wrote to both Axmann and von Schirach, of the two von Schirach was the most charming, when in one letter he realised that I was just 14 years old he expresses his shock and praises me on my knowledge of the subject. His English was simply stunning. Axmann was a stern abrupt man, and when he finally agreed to see me on a trip to Germany he was taken aback because he realised that I had been a teenager when I asked him so many questions. I always felt he was a game player, changing his story to fit the occasion but I could be wrong. He never refused an answer to anything I asked, although in his last few years he became a little confused with dates and names.

So my personal specific interest in HJ stems from von Schirach himself. He encouraged me in so many ways, he said always ask questions and believe nothing about WW2 unless it comes from a man who was there, quote ‘time will add vitriol to an already poisoned era’ His views on post war reconstruction and His youths’ part in it would do more than turn a few heads these days I am sure.

I have two copies of his 1938 book which he signed in 1973, when I was in Germany just a year before he passed away, one dedicated to me and the just signed. I have a Christmas card and many letters from him as well. Of all the top brass survivors I spoke to or wrote to he was the most open.

I still write to a few vets although most are now fading slowly away. I had a bequest in a will just after Easter from an HJ in Munich who I have known for over thirty years,, it was a photo of a girl he loved in 1941 who was killed in an air raid in 1944, he carried it all his life in his wallet. He said I was the only person who would understand the need to preserve it and the memory of what he felt through what he called ‘the years of joy and terror’. How do you value an item like that, how do you present that to future generations? On ebay or to a dealer a worthless piece of paper, yet having known the man, having seen his almost boyish laughter at a distant memory and the tears when talking of fallen friends it is a priceless gift that in many ways is the crowning item in my collection.

So here we are many years later, too many years I feel sometimes, I still collect the odd bit here and there. I have boxes and boxes of the stuff I have no room for. I do not know how many books and files of photos and letters. I have sold off bits and pieces over the years, the last of the daggers went last year – medical bills. But most of it will stay with me; it will give me something to do in my old age sorting it all out. If I have enough marbles left to do it

Some of us are born collectors, some of us are collectors by choice, and then there are those of us that are almost part of a collection that never seems to end................!
 
My talk with Axmann was mainly about Werewolves and the collapse of Germany, he refused to talk about Hitler and the last two days in the bunker. He talked about the politics more than anything else. Friendly and polite but strict and tense, I always thought he feared further harassment

von Schirach was a totally different man. He was very open and proud of his time in the HJ, he was incredibly bitter at loosing it - something I did not know. Our letters drifted over many topics, and over the two days I went to see him our conversation covered so much ground. So I will do my best to get something down on paper. Unless you have specific questions to help me focus it a bit if I can.

Both men asked that nothing was taped sadly, and the one photo I have of vS and I is somewhere in the packed and stored stuff in the UK. I think I have one of the books here somewhere that I could photo and post - finding things is an issue as I am untidy at heart
 
I've started this thread with Tony's permission in order that he can tell us more about his correspondence and meetings with Baldur von Shirach and Artur Axmann. If anyone has specific questions Tony is happy to answer where possible.
 
Hi Tony
I understand that axmann lost his right arm during combat on the eastern front this is a serious injury was his life at risk when this happened , what age was he and how did he cope with the loss ..

thanks steve
 
did you ever find out off schirach what led up to him losing the hj and being replaced by axxman and what he thought of axxman as his replacement
 
I'm curious as how both feel about National Socialism en what it did to the kids so many years after the war.
 
Hi Tony
I understand that axmann lost his right arm during combat on the eastern front this is a serious injury was his life at risk when this happened , what age was he and how did he cope with the loss ..

thanks steve

This is from memory so I might not be 100% on the actual wording. My note books are not here with me.

When I met him I went to shake hands with my right hand and he just looked at me and smiled. He said it was not a problem and that Hitler on at least one occasion had forgotten as well.

We did not talk of the action. I think he must have been around 28-29 when it happened.

I was there for a little over an hour and I wanted to discuss the end of the war.

Asking questions of men who history had judged and punished is hard, an inquiry can easily sound like an accusation. The opening hand shake did make it possible later to ask:-

Q " Did your own front line experience make you rethink the use of the HJ in the final battles both at the Seelow Heights and in the streets of Berlin "?

A " No " He replied.

Q " While the Waffen SS foreign legion members from across Europe fought to the last in the battle for the Chancellery were there at any time any foreign youth involved it that fighting "?

A " Not that I recall, but in those days it was more than possible "

Q " Were children of men serving in Waffen SS foreign legions encouraged to become Werewolves "?

A " Yes, but with limited success, they wanted to go West "

Q " Is it true that the Russians showed no mercy to HJ when they encountered them " ?

A " None what so ever "

Q " Was the use of boy soldiers in the final battle, when all was clearly lost done to buy time for the escape from the Bunker or for other military reasons "?

A " It was not clearly lost to everyone until the very end, by then it was to late to stop it, it would have made no difference to the break outs from the Bunker "
 
did you ever find out off schirach what led up to him losing the hj and being replaced by axxman and what he thought of axxman as his replacement

Thats a long one to answer, I wil need a day or soon that. Needless to say that Bormann features heavily in the answer.
 
I'm curious as how both feel about National Socialism en what it did to the kids so many years after the war.

von Schirach stated that 'His boys' won the peace. Without the training and skills that they gained in the HJ they would have soft in mind and spirit as well as business and not been able to rebuild Germany. Although the training was to rebuild conquered nations rather than the home land.

" National Socialism was the calling of its time and place in history not a policy, in the same way that the Bolsheviks had been in 1917 "

I did not discuss this with Axmann.
 
Very interesting answers from Axmann. What time period did your discussions with v. Schirach concentrate on Tony? What kind of things did you ask him?
 
von Schirach stated that 'His boys' won the peace. Without the training and skills that they gained in the HJ they would have soft in mind and spirit as well as business and not been able to rebuild Germany.

This is something many lose sight of. However unpalatable it may be to some people it was the training and attitude of that generation, as he says, that helped greatly to rebuild Germany. You can pump aid in (Marshall Plan) but the people have to want to rebuild.
 
Very interesting answers from Axmann. What time period did your discussions with v. Schirach concentrate on Tony? What kind of things did you ask him?


We discussed the early formation and politics, he put a lot of his own money into the early formation.

We talked about most of his service but I focused on Vienna and the final days of the war. I wanted to know how he felt about Vienna, being where Hitler spent a lot of time, was there a feeling that it deserved better support as a kind of cultural center, was Vienna ordered to be destroyed as was Paris, what part did the HJ pay in the salvage of items of value from coming battle. The use of boys in the front line, the conversations he had with boys that were obviously shocked at loosing, what part propaganda played. Did he see the end clearly and could he have taken steps to save more young lives under his jurisdiction and so on.

Was there an affinity in the early days between him and Hitler, one an artist and the other a poet, in the same way that Speer had a special relationship.
 
I can see that I will have to go back to the UK and rescue the letters and things to get it right. :001_smile:

One thing I do recall vividly with von Schirach was that even though his sight was fading fast he proudly waved a large manuscript around and pointed to around 100-150 dictaphone tapes, which he said was mostly poetry, but also some personal essays and statements on those days. I asked what kind of thing and he said I would have to wait until it was published. After his death I wrote to his lawyer and asked about the book and he knew nothing of it and said that nothing like that was found in the rooms.
 
hi tony
look forward to your answers on my question the fact it will be a long answer makes me look forward even more due to the fact there is plenty to tell
 
Thanks for sharing, Tony. Not only is it great info, straight from the source, but you write so eloquently, like telling a good story.
 
Very interesting. I would like to know if both men felt resentment at their treatment by the allies even in their later years. Both men believed in the ideals of the Hitler Youth and von Schirach always resisted any attempts to turn his Hitler Youth into nothing more than soldiers-in-waiting (something he was accused of at the trial). The SA and the Wehrmacht tried to take control of military training of the HJ and he would not allow it so it would be interesting to know how he in particular felt about his sentence and the way his life went after he was released.

Thanks
 
Absolutely great information here. I am looking forward to read more about it.

Thanks Tony for everything.

Best Regards

Antonio
 
Back at Home

Hi guys

Sorry for the delay in replying. I had to go away for a couple of days, but I am back now and will post something asap

Tony
 
Answers to Questions

The two mens feelings towards each other

I will deal with Axmann first as he is easier to quote and more succinct in his statements.

These are not word perfect as I am working from memory.

I asked a related question which got an answer I think address’ the question

Q. When did you realise that the HJ would be called on to make the ultimate sacrifice?

A complex and sometimes contradictory answer about the decline of the Reich followed:-

A. “When the day came to prove the loyalty and dedication of the Youth we did not turn from the task. They fulfilled their oaths to the fullest. I did not then, or now, believe that previous policies would have left our youth equipped to deal with such high matters”.

Q. Are you referring to von Schirach’ policies?

A. “If I had been in a position in the party at the time I would have urged the Fuhrer to deal with ‘that man’ in the same way as the rest of them in ’34 then we would have had a youth to be proud of. So many years were wasted in classrooms”.

There were no further questions on this point as it was not relevant to my research and the venom in the statement made it clear that it would serve no purpose to follow up. We continued on the fall of the Reich.

It is difficult to decide what he means by the final statement. Is it a reference to rumours about the sexuality of von Schirach, as a number of those that perished on the night of the long knives were homosexual?

Or were his, von Schirach’, forward looking Hitler Youth educational policies not in line with Axmanns longer term goals? Von Schirach saw a particular future world and a place for the youth in that world. He did not see the Youth fighting as a natural progression of the service and he could not have imagined a war in which children of Germans would have been needlessly slaughtered.



von Schirach on Axmann

“ I was charged with ‘crimes against humanity’ and indicted of ‘conspiracy against peace’ yet Axmann who is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of children for nothing more than a place in the bunker at Hitlers side with his old friend Bormann, buys 3 years in prison by using his confirmation of Bormanns death ”.

“After all who cares how many German youth died in those days, who today would bring charges of mass murder against the guilty party? Ask that question in Vienna today and see what answer you get?” (Reference to Wiesenthal)

“As I said at the time we would have marched on the gates of hell, but I would have been at their head and fallen first protecting those that held the future of the Reich in their hearts”.

“I have little doubt that I will again face charges as history is re-written by those with most to gain as new ‘evidence’ is uncovered”.

“To the victor the pen, always mightier than the sword in the pages of history”

While in contrast to his ignominious escape from Vienna at the end of the war it does indicate some sense of compassion that is over looked by many historians for whatever reason.

=========​

Von Schirach’ view of Axmann is clear but where Axmann fits in with the politics of the change of leadership is far from clear. While I never directly questioned either man over the change over some information may be relevant to the build up to the event.

Our dialogue was spread over several letters and a few items at our meeting, so writing it up is hard without full notes and as I cannot recall specific questions that address the topic more directly

Many of his views and feelings had been formed by the trials and charges at the end of the war making it hard to decide if his views are of the time or more coloured with age

As I recall and not verbatim

Von Scirach had for many years played the political game of keeping the army, SA and SS at each others throats as way to stop them trying to seize control of the HJ. Therefore he was aware that he had enemies and rivals from an early date. The work load of the new movement and party was such that it was easy for some time to ignore a lot of maneuvering against him by various parties.

Von Schirach became aware of more open and direct moves against him in early 1938, he was aware that private conversations and documents were being used and quoted in situations of political sensitivity. His first thoughts were that the army was planning to take over the leadership with a puppet appointment. This was because of a cooling in the close relationship he had with Keitel, which was due to the latters pre-occupation with preparations for the coming conflicts and not a move against him as he later discovered.

“He, Keitel, would have gained nothing from the move but a distraction from the real benefit of control over the army of able bodied SA men”

Von Schirach had spoken to Victor Lutze about his political standing far earlier, in late1933 early 1934 he questioned Lutze informally, by letter and later by telephone, and was reassured that Rohm had “no ambitions towards the HJ”, his eyes were firmly set on the command of the army. With the purge of ’34 the possibility of an SA take over were laid to rest as Lutze had stated. There were small attempts by SA commanders to absorb the HJ through ‘co-operation’ training programmes but when these were reported they were soon curtailed. He recalled that in Munich his protests were ignored and he had to ask Hess to personally intervene to stop the political posturing by the local SA chief. This lack of respect to his position did cause a pang of paranoia and he questioned friends about his standing and political safety. From 1935 onwards he paid little attention to the SA as a threat.

Lutze had informed him that the only possible person with most to gain by his removal was Bormann whos own aims were well known to the SA high command. These claims were dismissed by von Schirach as Bormann was at the time personal secretary to his close long time friend Hess.

In the early days there were several people that could have instigated moves against him and sown seeds that would bare fruit in later years.von Trotha had a well known dislike for him and good connections across the old military command structure. While Nabersberg appeared loyal to the youth and its leader he had strong links to Himmler and access to the HJ high command and its inner councils. From the information available it would be more likely that Nabersberg was recruited by the British intelligence service on his visit to the UK in 1933 rather than anyone within the Reich

The suspicions were supported at a high party meeting in late 1939 when Hitler asked about a particular item that von Schirach was working on ( I seem to recall it was a possible change to the oath of allegiance ). Appalled he, von Schirach, then looked through his staff and decided that either one of his secretaries or a close aide was working for the weakened SA or more possibly the army. One of the things that von Schirach was known for was the large bureaucratic machine that accompanied him everywhere making it an almost impossible task to track down a leak.*1

He never considered the SS as a real threat and dismissed the idea that Himmler was anything other than “a loyal party member who would do anything Hitler asked” and “with his eyes firmly fixed on a higher position”. Considering that Lauterbacher, his deputy, was a member of the SS and an honorary SS general this is a surprise. Lauterbachers relationship with Himmlers close friend and advisor Berger * made him a prime suspect in the period from 1938 onwards. I asked about this and it was dismissed out of hand even after all the years of reflection.

He saw no reason why Hitler would allow anyone to undermine him at this time; his loyalty was “Above question”. Add that to a shared passion for art and architecture and “our friendship was beyond most mens understanding”
The search for spies went deep into his retinue; his driver was changed three times in six weeks, several of the closer HJ high command were reassigned, two taking up transfers to the SS, Secretaries were rotated between meetings and aids were watched closely by trusted friends, even a favourite cook was double checked. ( names )

“I had no idea who or where the enemy was, but I knew he was there”

Axmann had been for sometime a rising star with an eye on command of the HJ. He pursued his own career and was both privately and openly dismissive of von Schirach’ lack of commitment to the militarisation of the HJ. While von Schirach had actively pushed the HJ forward with military training programmes these were tempered with studies which had a longer term application in peace time as a more cultural and political force than an armed fighting arm of the army. These theories were the creation of the relationship with Himmler and the ideals of the SS, many meetings between the two men were held throughout von Schirach’ time at the head of the HJ.

It is a matter of record that he had the full support of Hitler in stopping the Adolf Hitler schools becoming institutions for purely military training

So through the turmoil of the formation of the movement and disillusionment of the pre-Nazi boys’ organisations culminating in his triumphant arrival as a major political force at the rally in 1936 he made many enemies. The early difficulties in removing and absorbing the non-Nazi boys organisations came under increasingly strong influence of Bormann, who tried to prevent absolutely any kind of agreement between the Party offices and the Church and between the youth leadership and the Church.

Axmann while a close co-worker in the 1933 fund raiser was always trying to be one step ahead politically. When he was appointed as one of von Schirach’ assistants “ I kept one eye on the front and one on Axmann”
While von Schirach left the office of the Reich Youth Leadership of the NSDAP, he retained the office of Reichsleiter for Youth Education and with that the entire responsibility for German youth as well as Deputy of the Fuehrer for the Inspection of the Hitler Youth.

So his dismissal from the HJ is not as clear cut as would first appear. Von Schirach recommending Axmann as successor to the job was in many ways a shrewd move, with his retained titles and power he would have access to the highest levels of the HJ at any time. And he always saw a short war he felt, until it was clear that things were to have a different ending to those planned, that he would be again one day head of the HJ in the greater German Reich.

The promotion to Gauleiter of Vienna very quickly after his action in France hints of something wider in the politics of the Reich. Von Schirach said that he “felt the direct hand of Hitler in this appointment” as opposed to a cabinet appointment. The elevation to Gauleiter of the most difficult Gau in the Reich was a comment on his abilities and was a major coup against the power base of Bormann.

The pivotal figure in all this von Schirach stated was Bormann, his position with Hess and the high party leadership gave him ample opportunity to work against him. The links between the major figures in the early movement and Bormann he said were stronger than those to the SA or the Army, remember that he had served in the SA and had relationships that allowed him to call on the likes of Lutze when needed. Himmler and the SS were never really interested in the HJ except to “pick the best for its ranks”. Logically his closeness to the disgraced SA high command, his relationship with fellow art and culture lover Hitler made him stand out as a potential threat to the ambitious Bormann.

Even as late as 1944 Bormann was plotting against von Schirach openly; I find the episode with the Christmas cards laughable considering the state of play on both fronts of the war.

By ’44 the relationship with Hitler had fallen apart and a resignation to accept that which was handed him took over. Whether this was due to his wifes brow beating of Hitler over events in Holland or his letter to Hitler is difficult to say. What is known is that he was for a short time a suspect in the July bomb plot and that the SS held a file on him. “I would never had a part in that plan, the alternatives to Hitler were to terrible to consider” ( Bormann )


As a humorous foot note it is worth nothing that von Schirach’ appointment as Jugendfuhrer on 17 June is ironically his most vehement critic Bormanns birthday ( and by a twist of fate mine as well )

* Who I also have letters from but sadly passed away before I could meet him

*1 which is a contradiction to his statement at Nuremberg where he claimed to have a very small efficient staff.

============​


I hope I have managed to answer the questions asked

Cheers

Tony
 
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