HJ Master Shot (Meisterschütze) RZM M1/120 - Fake?

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HJ_Collector

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Good Evening!
Need our help! Is this Meisterschütze a fake or is it good?
M1/120

Thank you, Gerold
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Mate, nobody knows whats going on here. A hands-on inspection is vital with these.
You could use the small images to support both sides i guess.

They do "look" ok, and seem to show wear, but is that enough to shell out 400-500 Euros? Just because a quick comparison of 3-5 images "seem" to look OK?
What we do know is that the reverse markings are used on fakes - Hermann Historica sold a small reverse die with these markings a few years back (on this forum somewhere)

What i certainly do not like on any of the shown badges here, is that on each one, the attachment has been soldered on post-gilding. Thats is simply not the way a badge like this was made. Naturally one could explain this with a detailed, hands-on inspection, as it could be that on all three the attachments were re-soldered later....

so for my ca$h, i would really want to have a thorough inspection, and would want to KNOW why they are real. I wouldn't simply rely on what a collector or dealers says about these. I would also need to explain why the attachments were soldered post-gilding, as that is most worrying to me.:sad:

Another, and another sold at eMedals. Note attchments soldered post-gilding. (Please dont use the dealer, eMedals in this case - as any form of proof, they sell fake badges like it`s going out of fashion, even easy to spot fakes like the GPB they just listed for 1500.-)

So i am open to both sides on these, but would need some evidence to assist me with a purchase or definitive opinion, as i have never held one.
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Thanks for your help! Unfortunately, the badge is not mine and I do not have better pictures!
I'm missing in my collection this marksman badge and so I have no comparison pieces.
Thank you, Gerold
 
You can ask Richard for better images if this is what you use to judge authenticity, i would not, especially with these - especially. (But i do realize that there are plenty of collectors who judge authenticity by way of a quick small internet image comparison coupled with what their dealers tell them - so there you go, Jedem das seine) He already asked me about this badge last year and a few days ago when it was apparently sold-or being sold?, i told him that i dont know, and cant say anything. Anyone that thinks they do know, had better have something to support them knowing, other than the general consensus... well, actually not, it`s not my money that will buy this so really i couldn't care that much who thinks what or buys what or supports what or what in general. What? :swiss
 
Thanks for your answer, Jo!
My opinion is also fake!
Why : Oval plate of the needle.
Laurel-wreath is different to the snipers of the M120 . But that's just my opinion and I am not an expert .
Gerold
Gerold
 
HJ_Collector said:
Thanks for your answer, Jo!
My opinion is also fake!
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Gerold, i didn't say that i thought it was fake, i just said that there are good and bad points just by the images. But thats as far as it goes with only small images without holding the item.
 
I just saw that this badge has been put up on WAF for opinions, so it obviously went from dealer to dealer then. The images just hosted on waf are much better than in post one, so here they are for future reference.

And a link to this:
Hermann Historica sold a small reverse die with these markings a few years back (on this forum somewhere)
Click to expand...
http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f23/10-000-box-fake-hj-dies-7929/#post55398 (see image marked 34)

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No, same badges, same enamel damage in the center. Dont know what to think really.
 
Jo Rivett said:
You can ask Richard for better images if this is what you use to judge authenticity, i would not, especially with these - especially. (But i do realize that there are plenty of collectors who judge authenticity by way of a quick small internet image comparison coupled with what their dealers tell them - so there you go, Jedem das seine) He already asked me about this badge last year and a few days ago when it was apparently sold-or being sold?, i told him that i dont know, and cant say anything. Anyone that thinks they do know, had better have something to support them knowing, other than the general consensus... well, actually not, it`s not my money that will buy this so really i couldn't care that much who thinks what or buys what or supports what or what in general. What? :swiss
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should they not just be the same or damn near close to its silver brother? after all many different makers of the silver and the badges are pretty much the same near enough , while the golds are miles different mate?
 
The Collector's Guild
even modern pooh shooting badges are listed at full whack, so there you go. I`d suck on that for a while before i worried about the jumbo leaf border. It would be nice to have someone explain why they are genuine, or not, as well as the meaning of life and a few other things.
 
There were less than 1000(?) of these awrded so why so many makers? I always think that when I see these rare badges. There is M1 63, 102 and 120 as far as I know but I really don't like the look of the obverses on these M1 120s. They always look totally brand-new.
 
crack said:
but I really don't like the look of the obverses on these M1 120s. They always look totally brand-new.
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Well, an identical one was sold as a fake by Betram Militaria a year or so ago for €19-. It is identical by all means to the badge that Giel VW. (on waf & online under Gielsmilitaria) now owns.
Here is the link, images below.

After quickly reading the WAF discussion on these, i have decided that i want no part of this. I told 3 collectors who asked me about this badge last year I DONT KNOW, i told the dealer who just sold it to Giel VW. that I DONT KNOW, twice. So if people want to have "opinions" on these, and use BS like : "It has a reassuring crack in the enamel" to support their opinions, it is time for me to leave, otherwise heads and limbs are likely to fly.

I would STRONGLY suggest though, that Bertram Militaria be contacted and their opinion asked on these - seeing as they sold one as fake for under 20 bucks not so long back. Maybe they made a mistake, maybe Jesus came back and changed their description and price? Whatever the reasons, these M1/120 golds are walking hand-in-hand with the HJ abzeichen für verdiente ausländer, with one dealer saying one thing, and another saying something else - with NO EVIDENCE at all to date - and collectors adding absolute muck to threads by saying a crack in the enamel is reassuring! (on WAF)
Would it be the same with dealers? Their heads are cracked - how reassuring indeed!

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HJ-collector said:
should they not just be the same or damn near close to its silver brother?
Click to expand...
Well, which one(s) are the original silver ones? How many leaf/wreath variations are there? Here is one.....
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well that would be ones that check out in hand, m1/63 is the only maker i would buy on these meisterschutze badges silver or gold thats just a personal choice

that thing you show above is horrid , can we see the reverse ?

is even worth showing mine? before you start chewing me to bits i havent owned ALOT of these and here to learn..

in hand and under the glass these two S&L badges are defo original :biggrin1:

weitze has one i like enough to buy/see in hand , that would be if it was not 600e , :cursing:
https://www.weitze.net/detail/96/Hi...szeichnung_fuer_Meisterschuetzen__234296.html

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HJ-collector said:
... these meisterschutze badges silver or gold
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The silver was the Scharfschütze, the gold the Meisterschütze.
You could always go for Jamies Cross`s one for £250.- or his M1/102 for 425 quid.

I dont want to know about them. The horrid silver one is an early 1960s badge by Souval, the reverse is actuall quite convincing if it wernt for their typical square plate.

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Jo Rivett said:
The silver was the Scharfschütze, the gold the Meisterschütze.
You could always go for Jamies Cross`s one for £250.- or his M1/102 for 425 quid.

I dont want to know about them. The horrid silver one is an early 1960s badge by Souval, the reverse is actuall quite convincing if it wernt for their typical square plate.

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well see there ya fo , told you i knew nout lol not even the names of ze feckers!!!

that m102 of cross's is wrong a mile away . the souvals front insignia is all over the bit , i wouldnt give cross a cent of my cash

where did the info come from that there was only 1000 made? you know mate?

seems its going to be hard to add a gold and maybe impossible , oh well
 
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