HJ sharpshooter (Scharfschütze) badge RZM M1/14

[christianlohmann]

Wow, thanks again for the information. You are right, there are a lot of people who just want to belive what the have always belived. And someone who tells the truth is not always welcomed everywhere. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on the 5% original items and your knowledge about faked items.

 

[Jo Rivett]

And someone who tells the truth is not always welcomed everywhere.

Well i`m not quite sure i would call it "telling the truth" but rather more just being open, and sharing some in-depth knowledge that might assist others to either carry on researching, or to stop and think for a while before blindly going with the masses and believing only a certain circle of people.
At the end of the day though, i don't believe that it`s anything to get angry about, it`s a hobby after all, and should stay that way. As long as the collector is satisfied that he invested wisely i guess that's OK. (even if the reverse is marked `made in China in 2005") We should all be allowed to express opinions without the fear of being ostracized, after all, every bit of research should be welcome, whether good or just plain stupid. Thats the main problem today, way too little research going on.

 

[Wim Vangossum]

Stu's s M1/14 shooter badge is interesting, it doesnt show the alarming green hue. Wished that I had more luck. My badge shows definetly the weird pattern.
If this "fingerprint" sits on all M1/66 DJ shooting badges and other, more obvious fakes, we have a whole range of fakes that can be detected in the future. I'm at least very happy that Jo figured this out. It gives much to think about.


Regards, Wim

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[stuart]

please dont take my post as being offensive, im just trying to clear things up for everyone, now that you explained the reason behind your reasearch and why it is not commonly known then that explains a lot, im not getting hot under the collar either lol, i would rather know i have a fake and get rid of it as it would have no place in my collection.

as for the badge i posted would that be okay then going by the negative test ?? as antonio and wim said it doesnt seem to show the stain marks ??.

all research is important, and your right no collector likes to find out that they have fakes in their collection, but when you collect this stuff its inevitable im afraid that we will all be caught at some point ,and with new techniques coming out all the time any tool that helps us spot the fakes is brilliant

 

[Heran]

Hi Wim,

It is the same for mu badge too. It lights like a fecking Xmas tree

Without any doubt, it is always good to know this type of things.

THANKS TO ALL!!

Regards

Antonio

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[Jo Rivett]

Stuart, here is a perfect example.

Note the two badges below, the first M1/63, is IMO a fake HJ-Shooter, note the (flame) heat/burn marks where the pin plate has been soldered on, and now when turned into negative, note the excessive wear on the reverse, or better phrased, very untypical wear marks, little bumps, nicks and scratches all over the reverse, yet the pin plate looks new and undamaged.

Now note the, IMO Authentic M1/77 HJ-Shooter, note around the pin plate NO heat/Burn marks, note the correct wear marks on the reverse, which are typical of used and "been there" badges, wear around the edges, nicks and scratches BUT NO WEAR in the actual middle of the badge. Or very little. This is what i would be hoping to see on a genuine item that has been worn, the wear coincides with the way in which it was worn, and is normal. To me, it is also clear that the Fake M1/63 has a Steel needle, which is never a good sign IMO.

So it rather a combination of a few aspects, and not using my "negative image" theory as Rule of thumb, but just as an additional aid.

Theories theories, it reminds me of the UV glow test, and thread burn test on Cloth items, which many swear blind by, and many say is complete poppy cock ! I guess it is up to the individual.

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[Jo Rivett]

Time for 1 more post before i go to work.
Below, four small Authentic around the pin plate !! i could take pictures of every badge that i believe to be good, and convert the images, and to date, not one single badge will show this discoloring !! So, if this "theory" of mine is a dead cert. i don't know, but up until now, it works for me and is certainly something to think about !

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[stuart]

hi again
i can see what your saying and agree with it all honestly lol, but can i ask what would cause the glowing on the areas shown on the 77, which looks like a perfectly good badge .

and what did you make of my m1/14 ?????

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[Jo Rivett]

hi again
i can see what your saying and agree with it all honestly lol, but can i ask what would cause the glowing on the areas shown on the 77, which looks like a perfectly good badge .

and what did you make of my m1/14 ?????

Dirt, same as can be seen above on badges M1/31 and M1/6 if you compare the before and after images. I have to leave now, but will look at it when i get home tomorrow morning.

Also to consider, (yes it gets complicated) is the material used, ie: Solid Nickel silver will have, or adopt a different patina after 80 years than Copper, Bronze and mixed metals will. Also the way in which the badge was preserved, ie: was it laying outside in a shed in a tin box for the last 80 years of in a drawer stored at room temperature etc etc...

All i have looked into so far with regards the Heat marks, is the Traditional way of soldering attachments on and the Use of Fluron compared to the way in which it is done today, or long-post-war. There are a few more pointers concerning the pin plate, which i can see straight away from the M1/14 badge posted above which i will elaborate on tomorrow.

 

[stuart]

heres a pic of all the m1/14's shown so far ,they are in order

top left stu
top right wallhall
bottom left wim
bottom right antonio

from what i can see only wallhall's and wims show the soldering marks , does that make the others good ??? or are there others things the begative show up that can be spotted

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[Wim Vangossum]

The pin of my badge is non magnetic, so no steel in that one. When I look at it now, I see it differs strongly from the reverse of my many party pins. There is no aged wearing pattern like Jo said. On some others I find it more difficult to see the alarming hue.

Before we get a less or more solid theory we need still to clear a few things out.

1. Comparising good, 100% originals with these glowing weirdo's. Did M1/14 made original HJ shooting badges? Or is the entire series fake?

2. What about S&L M1/63? I suppose he made originals.

3. IMO the negative-test is only an equal different way to show the weird pattern because once you focus on the wrong hue it is equal to spot on the real reverse picture. The strange discoloration is clearly visible if you know how to look. And this is IMO the most interesting fact I learned from Jo here; The way you have to look at that reverse!


Regards, Wim

 

[Jo Rivett]

does that make the others good ??? or are there others things the begative show up that can be spotted

Stuart, i just woke up, so after a few teas and the necessary, i will answer...

Did M1/14 made original HJ shooting badges? Or is the entire series fake?
Wim

Wim, this is the question It is going to be very hard to answer in such a way that everyone is satisfied, but maybe we can after looking at a few more things.., and when looking at the M1|63 and M1|14 reverse, we find that the die design regards mm and mm placement, RZM logo etc are 100% identical in shape and size , Not uncommon if you have been following my Sub-contractor research, (actually it is uncommon, but i will elaborate a bit later, so as not to confuse) BUT, this is still restricted only to the same area. Ansbach and Lüdenscheid are 400 Kilometers apart! And taken the time frame these badges were made, i can, with 99,9% certainty say straight away that it did not happen ! Other badges such as the DVG westmark or an even better example would be the Heim Ins Reich Supporter badges that were made at an even more turbulent time were all made in Idar/Oberstein, but by at least 5 different makers, all not using the identical markings.

 

[Wim Vangossum]

To make a certain progress can we put some things in line:

(Correct me if I'm wrong)

Known makers of the HJ shooting award:

M1/14 Matthias Oescler & Söhne - Ansbach ???????????
M1/63 S&L - Lüdenscheid
M1/77 Foerster & Barth - Pforzheim
M1/102 Frank & Reif - Stuttgart
M1/120 W. Deumer - Lüdenscheid
M1/148 Heinrich Ulbrichts Witwe - Wien

If anyone else now other makers, please post them.

Regards, Wim

 

[stuart]

even though the mm of the 63 and 14 are in the same place the rest of the reverses are very differant ,for example the 14's tend to have the lines on the back for the poin placement wheras the 63 are just a plain back, the pin plate on the 63 is also smaller, surely if these where all being made by the same fakers they would not bother with these differances and would have produced them all the same ?????

 

[Wim Vangossum]

As far as I know a good silver grade HJ shooting award made by M1/63 Steinhauer & Lück has a characteristic

1.swastika with very thin arms.
2.The reverse has a rather shallow RZM logo and mm plus
3. a slightly off-centre placed pin plate with
4. (like Stu mentioned) no pin guidelines.

Based on this I assume there are no examples with the above described features and the bad reverse soldering technique on one and the same badge?

And concerning the maker M1/77 Foerster & Barth - Pforzheim there are no badges found with the wrong reverse soldering technique, so they are relatively safe.

Regards, Wim

 

[Jo Rivett]

Wim, Post # 33, IF any subcontracting happened, it would be between makers in the same town, therefore it would be reasonable to expect to see, M1|120 and M1|63 marked in a similar fashion, Not two makers 400 Kms away. (based on research so far on the M2 makers in Pforzheim 1933-1935)

Stuart, the answer to your question is simple, fakes in the next generation, and next and next and so on, below two examples, an Early fake of the 1924 NSFP/NSFB badge, and a later generation fake, with "almost" the same markings, just slightly changed.

NOW, onto what Wim said, Did Matthias Oechsler (M1|14) actually make any HJ Shooters? I cant answer this, but what i can show you, is what i meant, when i said that the markings were typical 1970`s repro markings. See small pic, taken from WRF.
So, the proof so far, is that Reproductions marked in exactly the same fashion as all the M1|14 badges (and M1|63) on this thread are known, with 100% certainty !

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[Jo Rivett]

I would like to continue on something i mentioned in post #26.

note the excessive wear on the reverse, or better phrased, very untypical wear marks, little bumps, nicks and scratches all over the reverse, yet the pin plate looks new and undamaged.

Here are another two i found online, (HJ Gold shooters) note the exact same wear all over the full surface. Tiny knocks, dents and scratches in the same pattern as the badge i posted in post # 26. (The pin-plates are wear-free and have imo been glued on later) Very untypical wear marks, even if the badge had been worn for years, which it has not, as these two Gold shooters are Half finished badges.

What i see here, are people trying to fake wear marks, by tumbling the planchets in a drum filled with rough satellites or scrap metal in order to scratch, dent and nick them. A process done in the manufacturing of coins and tokens in order to remove burrs from the edges.

Pics below of two Genuine planchets to give you a basic idea of the kind of wear one could expect to find on Half finished items, Planchets and the like.

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[Wim Vangossum]

Here is my basic HJ shooting badge made by S&L. This one has a normal ageing comparable with my party pins.


Regards, Wim

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[stuart]

even though the picture is very small the lettering on the m1/14 fake you have shown differs from others the line in between is much closer to the respective 1's than others that are shown

 

[Wim Vangossum]

I like to mentioned one important thing: There is no chance they used a different soldering technique because they had to fix the riffles on????


Jo, now here's a badge that is reserved for me and which I can inspected by hand before buying it. There is no trace of the characteristic greenish hue (like on my my M1/14). What's your honest opinion about this one?

Regards, Wim

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