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  1. #41

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    to clarify my point made in my last post about the mm that jo posted on the fake m1/14, heres a pic of 2 m1/14 badges together as you can see the fake mm is very diff to what is widly accepted (correctly or not ) as an original, notice how close together the numbers and letters are compared to the accepted version
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  2. #42

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    This is still a very intersting thread but when reading again trough the five pages I noticed a lot of confusing.

    First of all: the negative picture is only a different way to look at a discoloration on the reverse surface of the badge. It's not a question of to glow or not to glow. Black areas become glowing white and are not alarming at all. What is alarming is the reverse of the badge that started this thread and mine (that I post here again). It showes a clear different ageing as we would expected on original badges. I agree this with Jo and I think Stu thinks the same about that.

    However there are badges with the same reverse setup which NOT have the traces of the soldering flame. This bothers me because like it is know , I refuse to believe that all M1/14 are bad and all M1/63's are bad. For that I wish to see more evidence like a period document that reveils the official makers of this award for instance.

    I'm 90 % convinced there is something wrong with the badges with the greenish hue. I will be 100 % convinced when a different soldering technique because of the rifles, is excluded. I assume the were soldered on with a different melting point.

    All this deserves a lot of future study. I think every HJ shooter badge will be looked very careful from now on.

    Regards, Wim
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  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by stuart View Post
    to clarify my point made in my last post about the mm that jo posted on the fake m1/14, heres a pic of 2 m1/14 badges together as you can see the fake mm is very diff to what is widly accepted (correctly or not ) as an original, notice how close together the numbers and letters are compared to the accepted version
    Stuart, yes of course, but dont forget the point i was trying to make, Fakes, or reproductions into the 4th,5th and maybe 10th generation, just the same as the two M1|4 fakes i posted. This is observed, and recognized by any serious small badge collector that there are many generations of fakes, even Fantasy badges. It would also depend where the fake was made, some good old older ones, (maybe first generation?) are on solid bronze planchets, and even silver-washed, and much later ones (modern production) are on easy to recognize cheap modern metals such as the fake you posted above) The point is that this particular mm is faked, so there is a good possibility that it was never a period mm, but merely a fake of a fake.

    Seeing as i have mentioned the NS-Braunschweig badge on this thread a few times, i`ll bring that up again as an example, there are older, good badges, with super enamel and correct pins and markings, and much newer copies that are sloppy... so collectors are saying the same as you are here, comparing gaps between this and that, comparing the size of the logo on an older, more believable one with a newish one and therefore reaching the conclusion that they have the original, BUT, we know now that ALL NS-Braunschweig badges can not be period regardless of mm or material or gaps or whatever other reasons can be thought up.

    This is why i am not a fan of *comparing a few pictures* and reaching a conclusion based solely on that without turning to history first and looking at all the facts.

    The only way i see to go forward with these M1|14 and M1|63 HJ Shooters, is more in depth research. We all have opinions, as we should, but in most cases it helps to start right from the bottom again, and then work our way up, using basic History as a guide. (as we saw in the case of the M1|66 marked DJ badges) That way we can start ruling out things like what "could" be deemed acceptable for that time period, from that maker, what we should be looking for, what can be ruled out etc etc...

  4. #44

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    Hallo
    ......Damit wären wir wieder bei meinem Abzeichen......Nadel ist nicht magnetisch und es kommt an den Gebrauchsspuren BM zum Vorschein.... Die Emaillie ist beim Zahntest sehr glatt.... Bei dem Test mit einer heißen Nadel ist auch alles positiv verlaufen.....
    mfg Brian

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Walhall View Post
    Hallo
    ......Damit wären wir wieder bei meinem Abzeichen......Nadel ist nicht magnetisch und es kommt an den Gebrauchsspuren BM zum Vorschein.... Die Emaillie ist beim Zahntest sehr glatt.... Bei dem Test mit einer heißen Nadel ist auch alles positiv verlaufen.....
    mfg Brian
    Hi Brian, sorry to sound negative, but everything you have just mentioned here, is useless, and would not be considered by any serious collector as any means of a test to determine authenticity. I also think you are missing the point here altogether, it is not really about if the enamel is Epoxy resin or if it rings good on your teeth , but moreover if the mm M1|14 is at all legit on these badges. Like i mentioned above, we really have to stop comparing pictures (or tapping badges against our teeth) and go right back to the start, and work our way up from there.

    Wim, good points, but i don't refuse to believe anything though, we have seen with small badges just how corrupt the market is all the way back to way before we were born or collecting, so anything is possible, even the possibility that all M1|14 marked shooters are bogus, and maybe even all M1|63 marked shooters as well. For real, unbiased open and honest research, you have to start with a clear mind, and be open for all possibilities until research can strike each possibility off the list one by one

    Fact is that there are also reproductions of the M1|102 marked HJ Shooters.
    Fact is also that the M1|120, M1|102 and M1|77 are all marked in a very different way, so Why are ALL the M1|63 and M1|14 all marked in an identical way ? (The plausibility of a sub-contractor connection between the two makers, can, imho be erased right from the start, based on my research into this area.)

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Wim Vangossum View Post
    All this deserves a lot of future study. I think every HJ shooter badge will be looked very careful from now on.
    Wim, a good start will be clear, big images of the obverse of say 10-20, what collectors think are real M1|63 and real M1|14 badges, to see if any connection can be made to the same front dies being used. IF THIS CAN BE SEEN, then we will have our answer without further research needed (depending of course if collectors are unanimous that they thought the badges in question were real)
    This has happened before, i can give you an example of a very early Hitlerbewegung badge, possibly Souval made early post war, really good condition, excellent glass enamel and really believable, and then a badge made many years if not many decades later, where the identical front die was used but on a poorer version made from some tin mix metal that even Morigi would be ashamed to sell.

    EDIT** I just realized that some might find my posts a little confusing, when i say we should stop comparing pictures and then say we should compare! What i mean, is that pictures will need to be taken by the same person, Massive excellent quality images taken from the same perspective and lighting, and then looked at in detail, just as i do with the Party badges (hence the Sub-contractor connection after a while amongst other things) So stealing images from the internet from various is NOT a way to compare ! you will need to have all these badges in your possession, or at least the same quality images in order to study them. So when i ended off this post above by saying "..compare images.." i really mean STUDY all aspects of the front die, how it was cut, and if any connection can be made or found, ie: the same die being used on both M1|63 and M1|14.
    Last edited by Jo Rivett; 15th May 2011 at 07:52 PM.

  7. #47

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    Known makers of the HJ shooting award:
    List of HJ shooting awards manufacturers:

    M1/14 Matthias Oescler & Söhne - Ansbach
    M1/25 Rudolf Reiling - Pforzheim
    M1/63 S&L - Lüdenscheid
    M1/77 Foerster & Barth - Pforzheim
    M1/102 Frank & Reif - Stuttgart
    M1/120 W. Deumer - Lüdenscheid
    M1/148 Heinrich Ulbrichts Witwe - Wien

    I went to a lot of badges today and have the following remarks:

    1. The M1/77 is without question the most safety version to buy.

    2. Why used Deumer also the mm written in an arc while he
    marked his other enamel with the large dash (see party pins and HJ honour Awards)

    3. I went trough older threads here and I saw a lot of badges (always M1/14's) with the bad flame traces.

    4. I still can't find an M1/63 with the flame traces visible?

    Regards, Wim

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Wim Vangossum View Post
    ... I still can't find an M1/63 with the flame traces visible?
    Wim, not something that i have started to look into, my own research takes up enough time, but from what i have seen, the M1|63 Steinhauer badges appeal to me at first glance, and have all the characteristics that i would expect to find. Here is an example i took from JT`s site, the obverse has a few flaws in the HJ diamond, the pebbeling is uneven and has that "human made" look to it, the obverse shows the normal, or expected wear signs as does the reverse and they both look more of less the same, (ie: not a heavily worn obverse and clean/mint reverse or visa versa)

    I asked Don to chip in on this thread, as his 3 cents are always welcome on any Small badge debate, but the threads too long for him...he cant absorb all the posts and gets sidetracked by the smileys..... me thinks Don is getting old
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  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metallwarenfabrik View Post
    I asked Don to chip in on this thread, as his 3 cents are always welcome on any Small badge debate, but the threads too long for him...he cant absorb all the posts and gets sidetracked by the smileys..... me thinks Don is getting old
    Cheeky sod!!!

    Don is not getting old, Don is already old!!!!

    I'm just not good at reading long threads on a monitor, it hurts my tired old eyes....

    I think that you've raised some interesring & valid points Jo. I've never liked what I call "rainbow" discolouring on the back of badges. That's when you get a coloured discolouration, similar to you get on oil. That has always rung alarm bells for me.

    I do think that sometimes the staining around a plate can be patina or grease/dirt that hasn't cleaned of with handling as fingers do not reach that area. But on the whole I agree, more research is definitely needed.

    I too have seen the same die marks/dot patterns under enamel on supposidly "original" badges from old collections & also on new fake direct from people like Morigi.

    Keep it up Jo (just keep the threads shorter)

    Cheers
    Don

  10. #50
    LOL, thought that might coax u from your shell.

    Yes, and of course by no means does my "negative theory" provide a one-stop flawless means by which to determine authenticity, but rather as a helping hand.
    Once more i must add, i have never encountered a badge with heat marks (or Dons rainbow) on the reverse that was, imho, Original.
    Since Wim has raised the point about Steinhauer marked badges, i will continue there.
    Below, six more before-after examples of Steinhauer (M1|63) marked badges, all Authentic, and spanning a time period of at least 10 years. You will note, that none of them show any heat burns !
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