HJ Badge for distinguished Foreigners

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Hello guys

I need your opinions on that 2 badges.
There are some difference, so I think one should be not original (or both).

Thank you in advance.

Best regards
Arsen

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I dont like them , save your money ...there is too much controversy surrounding these badges for me .
 
Both of the badges you show conform to the design accepted as originals by many collectors. The slight differences you see are probably down to wear & hand tooling during manufacture (Jo can probably tell you more on this) & the lighting used to make these pictures. Note that the dot pattern in the the red areas of the HJ diamond match each other indicating the same die.

Cheers
Don
 
Who knows, the left is silver-washed and the right one has been repaired and is gold washed. In any case way too much money for such controversial badges. There is no doubt that there was something like this, but nobody knows exactly what color or by what maker or in what amounts etc etc..... Fact though, is that sometime after 1965 a USA faker started turning these out in the box load. In Brown, Red, Yellow and green, pretty much the same time that the Fantasy color Hungarian pins showed up, a little before the Colored HJ pins showed up (they are still being made by the same person who started them - a not-so-nice man called Robert, or better known as Bob) and before the colored NSKK female badges showed up. Around the same time that the colored Heil Hitler,Ludendorff,von Gräfe and Deutschland erwache colored badges showed up (in purple, blue and yellow) too........

You would need solid period proof of the color, amount, maker(s) and documentation in order to proceed, and you would need a few, maybe 20 or 50 to compare in detail to be able to reach any useful conclusion .. and at the price these P.O.S go for, all that is going to happen is that some plonker will buy one, claim it came from a family, or vet, and scream blue bloody murder that his is real.

You cannot use the names of the people who sell these ALL THE TIME as any form of provenance, even though they are biggish names, as they have all been caught up in fraud stories and known fakes can be spotted on their sites and tables any day of the week as well, so there is no provenance as far as these go..all that can help is specific detailed research.. which wont happen, and seldom does when one has invested 2000 USD in a badge that as Don says, "the majority of the community claims is the real McCoy"

My advice, forget them and move on..
 
Note that the dot pattern in the the red areas of the HJ diamond match each other indicating the same die.
Don, i thought that this comment warranted a separate reply.
That dont mean squat, in fact its very worrying IMHO seeing as one is silver washed and looks much older than the new soldered on/or repaired Gold washed one.
Remember the Hitlerbewegung Austrian badge?

Image 1 sold by Jamie cross as real

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Image 2 sold by Barry (the) Turk [eMedals] as real (same dot pattern as above)

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Image 3 sold by Barry (the) Turk [eMedals] as real (same dot pattern as above)

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Image 4 sold by Bill Bruegman [Papers-please.com] as original (same dot pattern as all above)

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Then..... (trumpets) we have the new modern fake, on strange cheap-o material, that shows the identical dot pattern.
All made using the same post war dies, and the last is made using only the same front die and much later. But still by the same faker though.

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Now, if we didn't have this last Modern-fake picture, we would all be comparing the dot patterns on the goodish looking older ones, and saying "There you go, all the same pattern, all made by the same person" and we would be right, BUT..... were they made in 1941 or in 1967 ? With these Hitlerbewegung badges that is easy, all examples shown here are post war fakes... and with the HJ Brown badges???????????? so you see, much more research is needed, and many many more need to be compared, you would also need to buy a few of Snyders colored ones and compare them too, dont worry about Nazi-Bobs ones, as Snyder gets his from him, so save yourselves a few hundred.
 

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Hi Jo

The dot pattern on the ones above are the same as found on all of the types that were in collections from before the coloured ones turned up on the market. They also match the patterns on badges that are known to have come from Danish & Norwegian recipiants of the badge.

The dot patterns on the coloured ones are different to these.

Cheers
Don
 
Don, thats the problem, no information, instead "known to have come from..." and for me, thats not even close to nearly half way good enough, not for 2K a pop.
I dont collect them though, and will never purchase one, so i couldn't give a monkeys :good:
What i can do though, is show you a few of the very highest names in the game, with the same stories.. Known to have come from..directly from...etc.... (and its all B.S) .. and when info is lacking, as it is with these, and all you have is the "known to have come from.." then .. well Have Fun :biggrin1: The "known to have come from.." tales started in 1945, and if you had 20,50 or 100 Copies, then you could compare the dot pattern and see if any similarities can be found between the "known to have come froms..." and the Known to be bad badges. Without extensive research into these, no conclusion can be reached, and certainly not based on a "known to have come from.." tale.

People who actually OWN one, will feel differently though, as its money invested..so the known to have come from will be good enough for them. I have stumbled on too many things in the past, and uncovered known to have come froms and exposed them as fakes later on..and visa versa, proved "known to be fakes" as 100% original... even now in 2012 the battle continues..

so i see the only way forward with these in extensive research, and not in stories or what someone says or what a few people own. (thats called Bullying, and we see it all the time with the dagger gurus, slapping the TRUTH on the market and forcing the collectors to swallow their Shxx just coz they all own the same piece..or the HJ-olympic daggers, Special DJ dagger... etc..) It will never happen though, which is why i will never touch one of these, be they brown, mauve, beige or a nice shade of Hollunder :lol: Let those who own one rip each others ears off with these, and reach their own conclusions... thats why they sell sooooo well, all the time :lol:
 
never owned one of these and probably never will, would take a gamble on one if it was cheap but at the prices these go for why take the risk ????
 
I made a mistake, i dont know why i said 2,000, maybe old prices still in my old head? The Brown one at Phillip Militaria is up at €2400.- and the unmarked one is up on Weitzes at €3200.-
Anyway, apart from the HA markings, the front looks very good. So does this badge fail the test because the small dots are not the same? or because there is proof that HA never made them? or is it because that Weitze says so? (If we were going on integrity here, i would chose Phillip Militaria 100 x over Weitze) But we are not going on integrity, we are going on ...... Nothing, as there has been no real in-depth research to date. Only a few threads with people comparing images and stories found on the INTERNET. Or have a missed the in-depth research carried out somewhere?
Anyway, first pic is Weitzes and P-Militarias together, and the in-wear pic i stole from MyMilitaria, a site full of incredible and horrible fake and fantasy badges, who sold of these in Green, with a long Story attached. (aaaah, the story...yes !)

I have no idea, i cant see anything alarming with either the HA or unmarked brown ones..apart from the pebbling...but for €2500-3000 i am certainly not about to try and find out, i`ll leave that up to those with bigger wallets and more common sense than me. :thumb:

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I would rather have 70 HJ single enlisted pattern shoulderstraps (not pairs but singles)...no questions asked ( one looker originals ) worth 40 Euro a piece than pay 2,500 to 3,000 euros for one badge that you have to answer too many questions conserning its originality .
 
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If the community is "agreed" that these ones are genuine, they why is it, that we have, for this example, Weitze offering oner for €3200.- saying that Only these are original and all others marked HA are fake, and yet when the same turns up on elsewhere, as is the case now on Mili321, (same badge, unmarked, same pin plate) for HALF that, €1600.-, nobody seems to want to touch it? (it has been up for sale at that price for a long time) If Weitze is correct, and if the community has already "accepted" that these are real (the unmarked ones in Brown) then surely when one does come up for sale, especially at half price, it should be jumped on?

My next question is; nobody knows how many were awarded, nobody knows much about them except of course that they are rare, and so they should be when we look at other awards, awarded to Foreigners and how long you normally have to search to find just 1 example, BUT these, (the unmarked brown ones) are available every day of the week on some or other website/dealer/auction/forum ???

Does anyone know where Angolia got the photo from that he used? (the one in this thread) and are there any more Clear photos anyone has seen about?

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I can't recall any other photos other than that one Jo.

Here's a thought: did no one think to keep one of the badges which everyone apparently knew were fakes when they suddenly appeared in the 60s/70s? No debate I have read or been involved in has ever contained the statement 'here is one of the fakes made by ..... and offered for sale in 19whatever. We all knew at the the time that they were fakes'. If someone had kept one we would at least have a reliable datum for the fakes. Or is there a select group who know exactly which badges are the fakes and who are keeping that information nice and close to their collective chest? Or has this badge simply been able to confound every attempt to find out more? Mmmm... I'm not sure either way.
 
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