HJ-Skiführer Abzeichen

here is the answer PETER got from JEFF HAMMOND

Hi Paul

Here's Jeffs answer to my e-mail yesterday. Will e-mail you more info as I get it.

Peter

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Hi Peter:
I will check with two other knowledgeable people and get their opinions. I will get back to you soon (but it will probably be next week). At the same time, to me that badge still looks right. I know that people do question multiple strikes of markings, and perhaps they are right.
In the mean time, there is so much that is right about that badge. There were two manufacturers of these badges, Wittmann and Hoffstätler. Both badges are quite similar, but there are a number of differences. The Wittmann badge is, in my experience, by far the more common of the two.
The differences (although quite minor) are distinct between the two badges. (1) On the Wittmann badges the upper tips of the skis come to a sharper point. On the Hoffstätler badges the skis have almost a tiny raindrop type look at the end of the skis. (2) On the Wittmann badges the umlaut over the U is distinctly separate and neither dot touches the U. On the Hoffstätler badges the left dot of the umlaut touches the top of the U.
There are a good number of other differences between the two badges, but they are even more minor and obscure than these two. The badge you have is marked Wittmann and is correct for Wittmann on all of the Wittmann- Hoffstätler minor variations.
Also on the front, the wear exposing the copper underneath the skis and edelweiss is, in my opinion, correct. To get this type of wear to look correct on a reproduction badge would be a challenge, although of course a dedicated individual might take the time to do it.
The close up image of the markings also shows the bottom of the skis as well. To me the back of those skis have a distinctly cast look to them. But at the same time, the skis are quite heavy and might well have been cast.
The multiple strikes of the GES-GESCH is interesting and I agree that this is rarely found on an original badge. Still there is something quite interesting about that marking. The smaller square between the GES and the GESCH and the larger trapezoid after the GESCH are both consistent with the markings found on the Wittmann badges. The GES-GESCH marking on the Hoffstätler badges is quite different and on two lines rather than one and with a square period and a rectangular period in place of the small square and the trapezoid.
In addition the needles, the hinges and the hooks are all correct for the Wittmann badges and different from the ones on the Hoffstätler badges.
The badge you have does have some aberration on back on the circular piece at the center of the top of the badge. I can't quite tell what that means from the photograph.
As for reproductions, I believe that this badge has not been widely reproduced. I have never seen any reproductions except one or two quite poorly made examples that were obvious reproductions. The badge you have certainly does not fall into that category. It would be sort of surprising for the first serious reproduction of this badge that I have come across to be such a stunningly well made and aged and worn example that could only be produced by meticulous effort by hand. Even getting the needles, hinges and hooks right is an effort that many who reproduce badges don't bother doing.
Jeff
 
I respect Jeff's opinion and he has helped me many times. He has owned a legit ski fuhrer badge, I sold him mine. I still don't like this badge personally for many reasons. It's a rare badge, not many made to allow for variations in striking and design. It does have some good features and it's close but I still don't like the variancies I see in the badge. I do disagree on the point that high end fakes of this are not made. There was one on Wietze's site that was also a repro IMO and it looked very good.

This is just my opinion on the badge. If someone wants to spend the money and buy it as original good for them. If I spend that sort of cash I want NO doubts whatsoever about an item. The mulitiple strikes on the reverse are enough for me to have doubts.
 
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IT is very interesting and just shows how evil this hobby can get. Peter first ran this badge by me a couple months ago as he had never seen one before and I told him then that okay but he is very picky and sought second opinions still this is one I do not think will every get into my collection unless found in a known vet lot. Hope eveyone is paying attention and learning from this thread

:canada1
 
Garry am wondering in your data base is there any info on this insignia ref who was issued it when where etc in order to try and figure out just how many where ever issued and why it was.


:canada1
 
like most here this is one badge that i would never add to my collection unless it had 100% provinence, a lot of money to lose on a bad one
 
Garry am wondering in your data base is there any info on this insignia ref who was issued it when where etc in order to try and figure out just how many where ever issued and why it was.

Hi Paul,

It is not clear, to me anyway, that this badge was worn by HJ members or even that it was intended for that purpose. I have yet to see a photo of anyone wearing this badge let alone of a HJ member wearing one but as I say, it may well be something that DAV* adults who were engaged in training the HJ to ski wore. Or, it may be a badge for DAV adults who took groups on ski tours in the mountains. When I was in the army I spent three years with a unit that conducted winter exercises in northern Norway for three months a year. We had two guys with a qualification called "mountain leader" (german: Bergführer) who had been trained in alpine navigation, skiing, survival etc. This could be the meaning behind the term "HJ Ski-Führer" although with a specific slant to skiing. I don't know but the almost complete lack of info on the purpose of these badges absolutely cries out for a deeper look.

I've never seen a reference to this badge in a period HJ publication. That is not to say that it didn't exist of course but I think that the answer as to how many were awarded, when they were awarded and, most importantly, what for and to whom they were awarded is likely to be found in references related to the Fachamt Skilauf im Deutschen Reichsbund für Leibesübungen. The RBL was created in 1934 as the TR umbrella organisation for all sports but I'm struggling to find anything related to the training of HJ ski leaders even in publications up to 1943.

If this is a badge worn by mountain leaders or ski leaders within the HJ then I suspect that further information may be found from publications relating to the DAV and I have some references for the training of HJ-Bergfahrtengruppen in huts belonging to the DAV but nothing specific on skiing yet. As I say, it may turn out to be the case that it was these adults who wore the badge and not HJ members.

As an aside, I did find one reference which puts a very probable last date for any awards of the Skiführer badge and that is 1942 when the RBL forced the return of all skis for the war effort. After that point I would suggest that no badges would have been awarded but whether the return of skiing equipment applied to the HJ too is something which will need to be established. Here's that reference:

January/February 1942

Ski touring

As a result of the Reichssportführer's instruction that all skiing equipment be surrendered, an instruction with which all Alpine Association members of course complied, it will not be possible to hold ski tours.



*German Alpine Association (DAV) which covered both Germany and Austria (the Austrian equivalent DuOeAV was amalgamated with the German association to create the DAV in 1938)

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thanks Garry great info so far. It would remain that if as stated the number of trained HJ would indeed be low. I for one have never seen this badge in wear

:canada1
 
I am not sure if this is an HJ ski leader badge , but it looks like it may have something to do with skis.

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It does Paul .
Im still not sold on it as being an actual skifuhrer badge or just a simular pattern .

Here is another scan of just the badge on the blouse pocket .

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I don't think that's the skifuhrer badge. It's quite large, a couple inches in diameter. Size is bigger than one of those SS sports badges.
 
Could it be this badge? JME

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Excellent. Was just about to post that I agreed with Darin as the badge on the photo is oval and not round like the HJ-Skiführer.

Yours is the one on the photo Jürgen :thumb: Do you have a better pic at all? Just so that the text can be read?
 
This one is not mine but it from "Dem Sieger" on that website. You can see it under Day Badges. JME
 
Mannschaftsschiläufe Gebiet Hochland Nesselwang 1935

Hitler Youth Team skiing championship Nesselwang. Gebiet Hochland 1935
Thanks. Here's a bigger shot:

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