Marine HJ cap from MHJ Koblenz

HJ Marine Mutze RZM regulation or private purchase?

thanks for your comments john & yes melbourne is a wonderful city,.i have attatched a link to a wiki article i just was reading about the reichszeugmeisterei industry,& the amount of contractors & tailors etc its very interesting,.as i translated the RZM booklet today regarding my cap,.& i measured the whole cap to the mm & it does measure up to RZM specifications,.it translates "HJ Marine Mutze" im Blaue///& i realise in the pictures i origionally posted the cap looks black though outside in the light next to my HJ- Wintermutze its not quite but almost identical in colour & is actually a very dark blue to black,though i believe they were black & blue caps,"like the MHJ Sarrbrucken mutze" in the other thread & white obviously also/in the RZM booklet it also states translated "schafleder" (sheepskin) linerband "Koper-Satin" liner,in a photo i attatched it has even what i guess you would call an "indent" to the left side,which is common in naval caps,.the beret & peaked front is made to RZM specifications.it is over all very well made,.& compared to the interior liner of my 2nd pattern HJ-Dienstmutze it is almost identical in construction.( i attatched a pic),i believe it has been made to RZM pattern regulations & has lost its tag,or has been made very close to RZM pattern regulations by an independent tailor,or private purchase.i guess i will never really know for sure though as you stated,.i do feel good about it,with the history & what i have spoken about above.i would like to hear your thoughts though.i attatched a few more pics of the inner liner construction etc.the cap shows wear i have no doubt about that.

thanks,
si

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichszeugmeisterei

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I think you have done an outstanding job of research Si. In regards to construction, nobody thinks that these caps were fakes, constructed to be married to the tally. The caps are either marine youth caps prior to 1933 or so or KM caps or merchant marine caps. Or, non-regulation MHJ caps. So they will exhibit the features of a sailor cap unless very modern where the cap is so poorly constructed it would be obvious, either in frame or cap cover materials.

In your specific case, I would not expect the cap to perfectly match RZM tagged caps but I also doubt if the owner bought a cap someplace in the last 70 years and put the tally on just since he though it looked nice. I think the tally and cap have always been together. Why would he do that?

John
 
My personal feeling on KM , MHJ and Merchant tellermutze is that if they were the correct color and had the correct cap talley then nobody cared if it was manfactured by an RZM maker or not .... However ; for the sake of re-sale value , collectors prefer RZM taged regulation examples .

A non regulation example is basicly worth the value of the cap talley plus maybe 50-75 dollars for the tellermutze .
A regulation RZM MHJ tellermutze with all the correct tags and design will comand the value of the cap talley plus aprox 350 -500 dollars for the Regulation Rzm tellermutze .
 
My personal feeling on KM , MHJ and Merchant tellermutze is that if they were the correct color and had the correct cap talley then nobody cared if it was manfactured by an RZM maker or not .... However ; for the sake of re-sale value , collectors prefer RZM taged regulation examples .

A non regulation example is basicly worth the value of the cap talley plus maybe 50-75 dollars for the tellermutze .
A regulation RZM MHJ tellermutze with all the correct tags and design will comand the value of the cap talley plus aprox 350 -500 dollars for the Regulation Rzm tellermutze .

Agree with Joe except that some MHJ units were by the book and some were not. I bet the Berlin units were regulation, Munich and Nuremberg also.

Joe's valuation pretty much spot on.

John
 
Here is another example from the collection of Clyde Davis. As you can see, it appears to say "MHJ Dusseldorf 7" but it actually has been re-embroidered by hand after the original number had been removed. It might have been a "5" but hard to tell.

So it seems the boy had a tally with a "5" but needed a tally with a "7" so made due with what he had on hand.

John

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Or this one, also from Clyde. For some unknown reason the 1/23 was carefully removed leaving an "8" on one side and a "1/238" on the other.

John

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very interesting.yeah im sure the were origional,just adjusted,.most likely when the bann or unit was merged or changed etc

thanks john
si
 
Good morning wingman15.

For some reason this post came up when I was researching my grandfathers history. Did the name inside mention Eisentraut? I am the grandson of Günther. I would be very interested in buying the cap back off you if possible. I have served in the German and Australian army and am trying to puzzle my grandfathers service history together. It would be great to hear from you.
 
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