Marine HJ cap from MHJ Saarbrücken - opinions?

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possible purchase Marine HJ Mutze,.No RZM tag.M.H.J Saarbrucken,.shows expected age & wear,.in average-good condition.any opinions much appretiated.thanks

si

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nothing wrong with it,& with all due respect,.regarding this cap & the other HJ Marine mutze i posted,IMO.it is possible for tags to fall off,.or be ripped off clothing & caps over 70+ years,i have alot of genuine HJ items with no RZM tags,& they are filled with blusen stoff stamps etc,not all items were RZM manufactured,.alot were made by independent manufacturers & i know alot of you guys are the most knowledgable people,.probably in the world in HJ items,though i am supprised at your (for lack of a better word) ingnorance,again with all due respect,.also these are youth items,kids as young as 10.they ripp tags of everything it was'nt a collectors item them,.obviously,.it was just a cap.& they were treated as such.but i honestly believe the above cap is genuine & the Marine HJ mutze in my other thread is genuine,worn by Gunter Artur in the HJ,.the way its made,from the material to the badge & the liner & tally,.the providence,(which i will post when i recieve it) its filled with sweat stains & markings,its history,its as real as it gets.yes i agree be carefull with RZM tags etc,.research yeah,.but its not all black & white here.

thankyou,
silas
 
in my opinion,so many origional pieces in all areas of third reich militaria are being pushed aside due to hyper criticism of genuine historical items.
 
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Buy and collect what you want. When you post items and ask questions you should not get upset by answers that you do not agree with or do not like. If you like the cap then buy it and enjoy it. I'm only saying that if you ever intend to sell on tags make a difference to a lot of collectors. Provenance? I don't believe any stories, I've heard too many. Items should stand on their own. Again just my opinion, as you have made comments so you should expect replies you agree with and don't agree with.
 
in my opinion,so many origional pieces in all areas of third reich militaria are being pushed aside due to hyper criticism of genuine historical items.

In my opinion in this hobby it's a issue when people ask for opinions on items they are not sure of or don't know about and then take a "it's real and period until you prove to me it's not" and "I got it for pennies on the dollar from a widow/family member/ old man in a motel room buy, it's real until you prove it's not" stance. Hyper criticism of items in this hobby is a necessary thing IMO, fakes are being peddled everywhere with FAKE aging, vet picked up stories, etc, etc. It's this type of thing that leads to masses of folks accepting some camping knife of little value embellished with a member pin as a period "DJ Knife". Look at the numerous examples of bad HJ Wintermutze that are put on on dealer sites on the regular and offered as good pieces. Tell an SS collector not to scrutinize items so closely and he will die of laughter. This has gotten off track from the hat discussion but you've led it that way. Items should stand on their own, and I will say it again, collect and enjoy what you want and if you like the hat then enjoy it. It's your collection to enjoy.
 
I think there are too many civilian caps around -like happens with the wintermutze- what got added an HJ pin and they're allready an HJ wintermutze. Same happens with marine HJ. Any cap with a tally and the Hj pin may look like an original MHJ cap, but even if someday it was one, you can proof it? Can you compare it with another RZM tagged cap and see if his construction is the same or at least similar...
These items are too easy to make them look like original but you can't really say they are. Personally I am not going to expend thousand euros for a cap what I will never be sure it was a real HJ cap or just a civilian one, I prefer to wait and someday buy one what really it is original and everytime what I look at it I can think "it is a good one" and not think I wasted thousand of euros in a thing what it can be or it can't be. Even sometimes you see items what do you think they're good and you don't take the risk by fear of waste your money and at end they're such good ones, but I can live with that, but not with the idea I wasted thousand of euros in something what can be anything and not necessary HJ.
 
And just seen the seller description and he names it as private purchase, what does mean NOT an HJ cap, a civilian cap with HJ insignia what could had benn used (or not) by HJ on the time.
 
thankyou for the feeedback,i understand completely,.& i will take it on board,.i personally think conversations like this should be brought up more often.they are very constructive & healthy for the hobby,.& i do feel good about the cap i posted in the other thread.

cheers,
si
 
I said I thought it was genuine. Anyway, I've even seen some caps with even another label sewn in. I would buy a nice MHJ with or without a RZM label if it is MHJ pattern. Cant find any of late.
 
Silas,

I just posted on your other thread and will not bother everybody with a repeat. I will say that there were many marine youth organizations in Germany and Austria before 1933 and all these boys had the Donald Duck style flat hat for the most part. Of course after the rule banished those organizations and merged them into the MHJ the old caps were used for a period of time. Maybe a long period of time. I have had sewn tallies, meaning the young man's mother probably stitched it out on her sewing machine (this was an Austrian town in this case) probably waiting for the official tally to arrive. I am sure the same thing happened early on with the caps in that the tallies started to arrive, maybe in some cases before the RZM tagged caps, and the boys just used the old caps for the time being. Or maybe that particular MHJ unit was not so strict as compared to other units and nobody cared what cap was used, official or not.

However, all that said, you cannot know for sure, generally speaking but not in a all cases, where the unofficial cap came from. Therefore, if the collector of MHJ caps is comfortable, go ahead, buy it, but the price has to reflect the problem. It comes down to money and valuation.
 
Nothing to add. John hit the nail on the head with his post!

Silas,

I just posted on your other thread and will not bother everybody with a repeat. I will say that there were many marine youth organizations in Germany and Austria before 1933 and all these boys had the Donald Duck style flat hat for the most part. Of course after the rule banished those organizations and merged them into the MHJ the old caps were used for a period of time. Maybe a long period of time. I have had sewn tallies, meaning the young man's mother probably stitched it out on her sewing machine (this was an Austrian town in this case) probably waiting for the official tally to arrive. I am sure the same thing happened early on with the caps in that the tallies started to arrive, maybe in some cases before the RZM tagged caps, and the boys just used the old caps for the time being. Or maybe that particular MHJ unit was not so strict as compared to other units and nobody cared what cap was used, official or not.

However, all that said, you cannot know for sure, generally speaking but not in a all cases, where the unofficial cap came from. Therefore, if the collector of MHJ caps is comfortable, go ahead, buy it, but the price has to reflect the problem. It comes down to money and valuation.
 
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