Marine HJ sailor style hat, blue fixed and white removable tops--MHJ Berlin 13

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I just obtained this nice example. I believe it dates from between Jan 1933 and Jan 1935 due to no RZM tag but it does have a nice tag inside with the name of the owner and unit name. I think that there is no question it is period.

The name of the boy is also scratched into the sweatband.

It is a first pattern cap tally in very good condition.

I do not have my references with me so cannot date the cap eagle as to type, time frame. Maybe somebody can help me with that. The blue fixed top has a prong back membership pin and the white top a pin back membership pin.

Very rare to find a MHJ cap with a white top.

Any Berlin MHJ cap is rare even though there were many MHJ units in that city. How any survived the bombing and destruction of that city is amazing. I have no photos in my database of a boy wearing Berlin 13. Examples of Berlin 2, 6, 7, 11, 12 and 18 are out there, most owned by Dani on this forum.

John

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Nice looking cap John. I don't know about the eagle but someone here will comment I'm sure. The white top is especially nice to see.
 
Hi John,
I really like your Marine HJ sailor's cap. Your dating is OK !
Best Regards
Eric
 
Cap eagle timeline

The eagle is a M-27 model. Here is an excellent reference graphic from my friend Stonemint. John

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Hi John,

According to this pic taken from a 1934 HJ publication the correct eagle for the pre-1938 MHJ Mannschaftsmütze was the M27. The 1936 RZM manufacturing regulations show that it was still in use at that point on the MHJ cap and I don't see a change in the regulations to a larger/different eagle after that. It is possible, I suppose, that the M37 eagle was used for a short time until the publication of Sonderdruck 7/38 (dated September 1938 - introduction of new clothing regulations for the Hitler Youth) which removed the eagle from the MHJ Mannschaftsmütze. A further regulation shows that the deadline for this removal was the 1st of November 1938.

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Correct is the M27 with a wingspan of about 3.5-3.7 cm (as shown with the drawing from
the 1934 HJ-publication). This pattern was in late 1927 introduced for the SS and named
"Adler-Kokarde". For the SA (and political) leaders this eagle came into being in 1931:

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The M34 officially has a wingspan of 4.9 cm. This version was officially not worn within the
HJ, but merely a form for political leaders.

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The graphic is not quite correct:
The one named as M37 in fact is a form from 1936 and has a wingspan of 5.6 cm (it
exists in a left and right looking eagle); the one indicated as M39 actually is the 1937
version with a wingspan of 6.5 cm (introduced for the SA with the date June 28, 1937
and was also worn by the HJ, as far as this was allowed for them). In 1939 this version
also was worn then by political leaders.

State eagles will be dealt with in-depth with volume 6 for the headgear-series "Headgear
of Hitler's Germany
"! Political eagles are told about in volume 3, published in 1998.
 

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That's great Wim. I didn't have the dimensions for the M34 and went for that one instead of the M27 as it compared better to the 1934 pic that I posted. Can you confirm whether the MHJ wore the 1936 pattern eagle until eagles were removed in 1938? I can't find anything about that in the HJ regulations.
 
Hello Garry,

Surely the one or the other will have used the 1936 or 1937 eagle and photos
may prove that. When I read the manufacturing-regulations from 1936 then I
would say they still did wear the first form of eagle (visible with all drawings
from 1936). The RZM drawings show a diamond and eagle.

The top is in front about 5.8 cm and was in 1936 reduced to 5.6 cm (and in 1938
about 5.5 cm). The diamond is high about 2.60 and the height for a M27 is about
2.35 cm. This would make about 4.95 cm, so a little space was left.

No drawings I know with larger eagles. In the manufacturing regulations from 1938
they do not mention an eagle size.

The M34 eagle has a height of about 3.3 cm;
the 1936 versions of about 3.4 cm;
the 1937 version of about 3.3 cm.
The symbols were officially not allowed to go up to the band. In my opinion until 1938
just the early eagle pattern was worn for those allowed to wear it.
Hope I did read all correctly!
 
Until now I have not found other information about eagles as what is said
November 6, 1936 (Vbl.d.HJ, IV/27. nr. 2 page 304):
for all leaders the new eagle for political leaders has to be worn.

This is is the 1936 version. The larger wingspan eagle was not yet introduced.
Have not found information about enlisted rnaks, nor naval-HJ.

With the "Sonderdruck 7/38" from the Amtliches Nachrichtenblatt (HJ) from
September 30, 1938 on page 4 it is said: visored cap for the Wachgefolgschaf
it is mentioned as "large" eagle. This surely will have been the 1937-version.
For middle-ranked leaders just national eagle emblem is said (for DJ leaders
as well). No size is mentioned.

For naval-HJ the national eagle emblem was mentioned (no size) for middle
class leaders and higher ranked leaders, to be worn in aluminum; for enlisted
ranks no eagle was included (the eagle emblem was abolished, finally with the
date November 1, 1938). This is noted for example in the "Mitteilungsblatt der
RZM
", nr. 18 from August 27, 1938 for the cap with blue as well as white top!

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The guy at far right does wear the 1936 eagle version. This is hardly visible,
due to the HJ-forum logo. So, here once more....

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Here the army type of eagle is worn:

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Excellent. Thanks very much Wim :thumb:

I updated the graphic from stonemint:

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