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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by lach470 View Post
    Here's an idea: could this be a pre-36 armband? Manufactured before the '36 rzm dated regs? I'm just wondering as the boy is wearing an SA belt buckle - not the HJ buckle that came out in '33.

    Rob
    Hi Rob
    as you can see from the 1934 regulation and picture, above, it is not possible that it is a RZM manufactured piece. I will try and find the other mention, in the verordnungsblatt i think-1932-33, but to answer this with a straight reply, it is not possible for a printed HJ or NSDAP armband to show the RZM stamp or the RZM tags/labels. There should be no doubt at all, that the armband that started this thread off, is a reproduction. (There are a number of reasons, the first being that the RZM, or maker, did not use rubber ink stamps on their armbands, the second being that the RZM forbid Printed armbands, and in particular they mention the HJ and NSDAP armbands right at the very beginning of the RZM)

    Yes funny and unorthodox things did happen, but to use them here, to explain these printed armbands wont work simply because of the sheer quantity of them available. People were poor back then, and as we know from photos, they did also make there own stuff, but not in series, and not for the whole neighborhood. Early, unorthodox armbands will be found, they will be sewn together though, and not printed. I dont know about the photo at the beginning of this thread, maybe it`s lighting, angle etc, but i don't believe either that the photo shows a printed armband.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Metallwarenfabrik View Post
    Hi Rob
    as you can see from the 1934 regulation and picture, above, it is not possible that it is a RZM manufactured piece. I will try and find the other mention, in the verordnungsblatt i think-1932-33, but to answer this with a straight reply, it is not possible for a printed HJ or NSDAP armband to show the RZM stamp or the RZM tags/labels. There should be no doubt at all, that the armband that started this thread off, is a reproduction. (There are a number of reasons, the first being that the RZM, or maker, did not use rubber ink stamps on their armbands, the second being that the RZM forbid Printed armbands, and in particular they mention the HJ and NSDAP armbands right at the very beginning of the RZM)

    Yes funny and unorthodox things did happen, but to use them here, to explain these printed armbands wont work simply because of the sheer quantity of them available. People were poor back then, and as we know from photos, they did also make there own stuff, but not in series, and not for the whole neighborhood. Early, unorthodox armbands will be found, they will be sewn together though, and not printed. I dont know about the photo at the beginning of this thread, maybe it`s lighting, angle etc, but i don't believe either that the photo shows a printed armband.
    Just to be clear here: it has never been my aim to legitimise the armband I show in that post by babbling on about RZM regulations. The photo is the important item in that post, not the armband. In my opinion it shows that printed armbands were being worn (certainly in 1933/4) when that photo was taken. My intention with the original thread was to explore the situation - not to talk a bad armband good.

    I can show you regulations Jo which prohibit the use of ink unit stamps on HJ items. Again, does this merely show the RJF's reaction to a problem or was it trying to prevent the problem in the first place? You could ask that question a thousand times about an equal number of items.

    Why should there be 'no doubt at all that this is a reproduction'? Where's the evidence? Edit: that sounds combative which isn't the intention. I started this forum because I didn't like what I saw on other forums where certain people always seemed to be 'right' even if I knew that there was evidence to the contrary. I don't mean you with that statement of course - I just like seeing proof in general. This armband may well be a reproduction and were I ever to try selling it which I won't, I would not be selling it as authentic but what date should we put on it? 1944, 1932 or 1972? That's what I'm getting at.

  3. #23
    Garry, because it has a big RZM stamp on it, and that was forbidden. So it`s clear that the RZM did not do that. This is mentioned at the very beginning of the RZM period, and mentioned again in 1934, and i am sure somewhere they mention it again later, but pertaining to NSDAP armbands.

    To answer the part about if they were trying to curb it.. well all we have is what the RZM announces, and in many cases where shady things were going on, they mention it, and tell people to stop, or speak of repercussions. In the case of Printed armbands, it is only ever mentioned, briefly, and never referred to as.. this must stop, or .. once more we have found... or it has come to our attention again..

    The Armbands were made up of different materials, not one maker making every part, they were ordered in parts, and stitched together according to size and regulations, so any printed armband must have been a one-man-job. If this was the case, bearing in mind that they are far from uncommon today, then someone would have been caught doing this, or more references should be found as to these, non conform printed armbands, which i have not found.

    Another aspect, is that they were always part pieces from 1920 onward, even when people made their own, and they were Part pieces under the RZM laws (at least the earliest ones, with pictures even from 1934) so taking this photo into consideration, for the sake of it lets say it is printed, that means we go from part pieces, to printed, during a heavy regulated early RZM set up time when this exact procedure was forbidden. And when we know that the RZM wanted Part pieces and not printed. Later on nothing changes either... they were always part pieces, and stayed that way. Non conform items were confiscated, this you can read about in the RZM papers etc, even confiscated from the man in the street was he found to have one. or more non conform items.

    Whatever happened later on in the war time is anyone's guess, Volkssturm are printed, so who knows?? but to find the RZM tag, or stamp, on one, that to me, raises such a high red flag that cant be explained by "maybes" .. coupled with the knowledge that they are not rare today, available regularly and coupled with the knowledge that they were not allowed, by the very Logo that is on them (RZM) to be made like this.

  4. #24
    On the GMIC, there is a post that sums up what i am trying to say above: (post 18 of this thread)
    The post pertains to another Printed armband, this time with the Adolf Hitler Schule stamp.

  5. #25
    That XEN person is me so I remember the thread very well. Back in 2006 I didn't have the books I have now and that discussion (and others like it on WAF) were what helped me to make the decision to start collecting period books as opposed to simply collecting the items that the modern books talk about. I was not defending Toby's armband but rather talking about printed armbands in general. Nowhere do I say that his armband, with those stamps, is good and that was never my intention. I started a thread on WAF about printed HJ armbands around that time on WAF which will still be there and which will show my true intention in discussing these items. It wasn't to convince people that MY armband was period but to discuss whether printed armbands existed. This whole thing started for me with Angolia's statement about the regulation which prohibited printed armbands.

    I don't see how that thread helps me to understand what you said above. I mentioned above that I could show you a regulation which states that units and organisations within the HJ were forbidden to do what you can see on that thread. The question is still extant: was that regulation a reaction because people were stamping stuff or was the regulation designed to stop it happening in the first place? Who said something on that thread which proved the case for or against printed armbands? I can't see it but as I say, I may be misunderstanding the point you are trying to make.

    Incidentally, don't believe for a second that the AHS armband is real. Why? Firstly, who in their right mind (if they wanted to show that an armband belonged to a unit) would stamp the external surface thereby defacing it? Surely the more logical approach would be to stamp the inside? Secondly, the internal stamp, if it is indicating an Adolf Hitler Schule, doesn't match the external stamp which is for a Gebietsführerschule. Again, makes no sense so for me this armband is an obvious piece of poo.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    The question is still extant: was that regulation a reaction because people were stamping stuff or was the regulation designed to stop it happening in the first place?
    Garry (cool down :001_tt2:)
    I somewhat disagree, and this is why. As far as i am concerned, your question is answered because:
    When it comes to Rules and regulations, and reading what is said about them, as can be done for the first 5 odd years of the RZM period papers, you have to read them all, and then you will get a sorta sense of what they mean, ie: as you stated above, were they being mentioned to STOP this kinda back door fabrication, or were they just being mentioned per say.

    And like i said, there are cases, many cases, where the RZM repeatedly mentions something, over and over, even to the extent of publicly Warning ! ie:
    We are saying this for the very last time, if xxx don't follow, then all the stock will be confiscated and the person jailed.
    There are even follow up articles published naming certain makers and people, and noting why they are now in jail, or what their punishment was, or the fact that certain stocks have now been confiscated etc etc etc... There are even long articles about Fake RZM tags in circulation !!!

    So, after reading all of these, we gain a picture (somewhat) of what the RZM meant when they said something, mentioned something once or twice, or repeatedly mentioned the same thing....

    Now, we take the brief mention in 1934 That "Printed HJ armbands are verboten", one line, one sentence, that's it. Again later on, there is another brief mention that Printed NSDAP armbands are verboten. And that is all we can read, or find out about what the RZM had to say about printed armbands.

    So we take what we know, have read and actually happened pertaining to stuff that was verboten, and stuff which the RZM found cause enough to write about and mention, and we see that there are only two, brief, fleeting mentions that they are verboten. We don't find them repeatedly going on about it,. or warning makers over and over, so common logic answers this (your) question above.

    Plenty of room is left open for speculation and what ifs and maybes, but once all the facts are considered, in a logical way, and weighed up with other known facts about stuff which the RZM "flipped out" about, we can only reach the logical conclusion that there was no Problem as such with printed armbands overflowing on the streets, units or markets back then.

    Logic and common sense usually answers tricky questions for us. Lets also not forget that Printed armbands are still being offered today by the Repro makers as well. The thread above pertains actually to the bogus stamp, just the same as, in my opinion of course, the RZM stamp on yours is bogus. History tells us that it has to be bogus.

    I`m not a cloth fan, so i guess that's my 3 pence on this thread. But before i would try and explain what-if and could-be to myself on any item i was unsure of, i would look at what is printed first and try and build on that. The way i see these, is that they are "Could be if we use our imagination" pieces.. like so much of what is in collections today.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    It wasn't to convince people that MY armband was period but to discuss whether printed armbands existed.
    Yep Garry, but in order to do that, we needed to get a few things out of the way first (RZM time-period,tags, Stamps etc). Now that that those few things have been cleared up, and it`s clear to see that the RZM did not want printed armbands... lets debate on that aspect now. So far we have talked about various regulations, pertaining to the Required way in which these Armbands were required to be made from 1933 onward.. (yes i just said required twice). So we need to forget about your armband, forget about the old AHS armband, forget about the few posted regulations of what the RZM wanted its makers to do, and forget about any RZM stamps or tags( i have seen proper paper tags on printed bands too) and we need to concentrate solely on what was made before the RZM started to mix things up by creating regulations, or Vorschiftsgemäss artikel. That means we are dealing with 1920-1933 or possibly 1944-45. (i say 1920 because i am roping the printed NSDAP armbands into this as well, as there are many)
    OK ? agreed? then let the debate start

  8. #28
    I'm happy to continue here as long as it is perfectly clear that my search (started 2006) for proof on printed armbands was not driven by a desire to legitimise my printed armband. That will be clear I hope to anyone who reads those old threads (I used the name XEN on WAF and another forum until a moderator banned me for being 'rude'....). For me this has always been about the regulations which prohibited printed armbands and how these regulations should be interpreted. The photo in post 1 is not proof but it is a strong indicator that printed armbands were around, certainly in the early period, and that they were worn before being banned by the RZM. Not everyone will agree with me that the photo shows a printed armband but enough doubt exists for us to take a closer look at the whole situation.

    Anyway, I've said all of this enough times already so let's get back to the present discussion. From what you are saying Jo I can see that my armband cannot be authentic and that's good to know but as I say, I'd like to concentrate on whether printed armbands actually existed. If you have something on that I'd love to see it because it would be justification for what I have said all along.

  9. #29

    Yes, printed armbands did exist, !

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    I'd like to concentrate on whether printed armbands actually existed. If you have something on that I'd love to see it because it would be justification for what I have said all along.
    Your wish is my command. See the Articles section. Taking a closer look at the situation, is what needs to be done with a lot of items. But as what you have already posted about these armbands since 2006 on various fora tells you, most people don't want to, or are happy to tag along with a quote from a book, that was written by someone who claimed to know things. And even when solid info is available, it often get misquoted, or "adapted" with the inclusion of a few personal opinions.

  10. #30
    Just read the article Jo. Excellent stuff

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