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  1. #1

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    Hitler Youth buckle marked RZM "3"

    Hello guys

    I just bought this nice HJ buckle, have you ever seen this mark ?

    Thanks

    Best regards

    Eric

    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Hi Eric,

    My understanding is that this is an early buckle (1934) by the maker Max Kremhelmer. The buckle guys say that the maker after "RZM" (in this case "3") on these early buckles corresponds to the M1 licence holder. That would make this a Kremhelmer buckle but buckles came under the heading M4 and M4/3 was a different maker (Kallenbach, Meyer u. Franke) and Kremhelmer doesn't appear as a maker in the M4 list.

    Does anyone have any more info on this?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    The buckle guys say that the maker after "RZM" (in this case "3") on these early buckles corresponds to the M1 licence holder.
    LOL, thanks mate, i needed cheering up today What a crock!

  4. #4

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    This does seem odd, Were the M codes not all introduced at the same time then?

  5. #5
    We did see a buckle marked with the M5/ code instead of the M4/ as was required after March 1935, a human error? who knows, but for buckle guys (whoever these guys are) to assume that 99% of the time, transitional buckle makers marked their items with their M1/ code - in this case a pre-M1/ code because we are "supposedly" still in the transitional period here (1933-1935) shows a huge deficit of knowledge on their part.

    The "transitional" codes, if you will, for buckles, would have been the prefix KH, each class of item had a code, from the first time that the RZM started with their prefixing ideas until their final M1/ prefix code.
    Although as with most "transitional" products, the actual old prefixes were not used that much on the actual items. Sometimes you will find the old prefixes used on items, UE (Uniform fittings) is one that we see, but many licensed makers around this time just added the RZM logo, and their Berechtigungsscheinnummer as per requirements. Before the final prefixing system, there are countless mentions from the RZM to add the RZM logo, plus makers number on the product, but no direct mention that the old prefix (MA/UE/KH/ etc etc..) must also be added. On small badges that would later have been prefixed with M1/, we dont observe the old prefix MA/ and must assume that it was only used in paper form (as we find on correspondence from this period in both official announcements as well as private company letterheads)

    To assume that the transitional code on belt buckles "could" be that of the later M1/ number, is an assumption that is just silly, and to claim that 99% of the time this was the case, demonstrates ignorance par excellence.

  6. #6

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    sounds more than logical Jo ! have owned KH and UE marked pieces and always thought these would be early markings, i believe i was then told it was so by buckle guys at WRF

  7. #7

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    Great looking buckle!

    Rob

  8. #8

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    Thanks guys

  9. #9
    Here is the old and new M4/3 number from the 1935 RZM Handbuch, in the advert showing their old Buckle number KH3, and in the list of all makers at that time, showing the new prefix M4/3.
    Without a doubt the numbers like this found on buckles have absolutely zero in common with a Metallabzeichen number (either MA or M1/)
    So the maker of this buckle was Kallenbach, Meyer und Franke. (the proper full name, not as most post war M-lists show, only - Meyer & Franke)
    DSCN2295.JPGDSCN2296.JPG

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo Rivett View Post
    Here is the old and new M4/3 number from the 1935 RZM Handbuch, in the advert showing their old Buckle number KH3, and in the list of all makers at that time, showing the new prefix M4/3.
    Without a doubt the numbers like this found on buckles have absolutely zero in common with a Metallabzeichen number (either MA or M1/)
    So the maker of this buckle was Kallenbach, Meyer und Franke. (the proper full name, not as most post war M-lists show, only - Meyer & Franke)
    DSCN2295.JPGDSCN2296.JPG

    Jo- thank you for posting that great advert! this shows how many RZM license numbers a single company could have; the time of the advert it was a transition in the numbering systems as the advert still shows the KH3 code ( which would later be changed to M4/3 and KH no longer used as a marking system) I am surprised that you would say that the numbers found on buckles would have nothing to do with MA or M1/ codes ( did I misunderstand this?). If you were to look at early solid nickel HJ buckles which are maker marked; many will have an RZM number ie. RZM 1, RZM 17, RZM 36, RZM 24, ect ect. These all are M1/ codes - M1/17- Assmann, M1/36- Berg & Nolte, M1/24- Overhoff ect ect. There are a few exceptions to this and these were due (in my humble opinion) to manufacturer error - like RZM 72 (which is actually Paul Cramer M5/72 ) We can prove this by comparing earlier unmarked, early marked, transitional marked and later marked buckles and showing all the manufacturing traits and designs of a particular manufacturer (such as Assmann, I have around 50 Assmann HJ and DJ buckles in my collection, every one different in maker mark or material, but all having the same design, and traits that make it Assmann specific)
    There were many changing orders from the RZM that happened in the early years and some of the manufacturers were either confused, made mistakes and or just didnt care and did what they wanted.
    there is a lineage of markings that we can see through HJ buckles
    1. Unmarked- RZM not in control
    2. company logos - RZM not in control
    3. company logo with RZM number (Overhoff & Cie. RZM 24 ) -----M1/ code system
    4. RZM number by itself- M1/code system (RZM tells manufacturers to stop putting company names and logos on with RZM protection mark)
    5. RZM with transitional code UE,KH and MA (some manufacturers still put company name and logo at this time against rule)
    6. RZM M4/ code system

    RZM 1 = M1/1 ****(Kallenbach Meyer & Franke same as your advert- I hold this buckle in my collection in both HJ and DJ)
    RZM UE8 = M5/8
    RZM KH24 = M4/24
    RZM MA45 = M1/45

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