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  1. #21
    The problem with the RZM mark, is that they went from being "like this" i.e: primitive and individually interpreted from late 1933 until around 1936, then from that time on, through to the other areas who acquired Licenses, Sudetenland and Austria from mid, resp. late 1938 to being not Standardized as such, or standardized to the effect that say the Obverse of the Membership badge becomes, but semi-standardized, and well executed, with most RZM logos looking decent, after all, by late 1939 or early 1940 all RZM M/ makers would have had enough time to "get it right" BUT, then when we look at the RZM logos and numbers on mid-late war made items, i.e: the items in lesser quality, made from Messing-plated eisen and Zinc, and the materials that took over from this date, we find makers reverting back to primitive designs, as well as the look of the later war items being primitive, or not made as well, not hard to imagine with Bombs dropping on your head and a German workforce of only invalids and old woman..so as much as the RZM mark look s crap on this, IF it was late war, it could still be accepted as good...as the reality of late made items support crap marks, or marks that reverted back to the transitional days..
    A good idea would be to look at the maker, and see if they didn't possibly loose this license long before the war? some early numbers are mentioned in the RZMmtlbr.

    But an honest answer would be that i dont like the mark in general, especially from a M4/ maker who held this number from before the introduction of the M4/ codes in March 1935, so they would have had enough experience by the late war period, although i must also add that i know Jack about Buckle RZM logos, and am referring ONLY to the RZM logos found on small badges. With a surface as big as the space afforded to this RZM logo, it should be much better IMHO!

  2. #22
    Cheers Jo. Still haven't been able to find anything on these belts in the regs.

  3. #23
    Is this correct? the one at Butscheks says
    "With the correct RZM paper tag"
    yet apparently it is not correct?? and there is NO RZM stampings on his one? yet there are on the one you just posted?
    could the one in the photo be black? or blue? Herman Historica sold a black HJ webkoppel in 2004...

    btw: If it says HJ/DJ Koppel 2. NACH VORSCHRIFT, which the tag does, then there must be a VORSCHRIFT for it :-) (dont ask me what the 2. means after the HJ/DJ)
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Jo Rivett; 17th July 2012 at 01:32 PM. Reason: added pics

  4. #24

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    belt and buckle are both fine, belt as said is HJ , not commonly seen.. the buckles nickel coating has worn off or was eaten off chemically.. this is a nickel over steel buckle; they would brass plate the steel buckles prior to the nickel plating so that the nickel would adhere better.. this is the gold we see here

  5. #25
    Hi Chad,

    Do you have any more info on these web belts for the HJ? A period reference would be very useful because I don't see them in anything I have here.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Williams View Post
    belt and buckle are both fine, belt as said is HJ , not commonly seen.. the buckles nickel coating has worn off or was eaten off chemically.. this is a nickel over steel buckle; they would brass plate the steel buckles prior to the nickel plating so that the nickel would adhere better.. this is the gold we see here
    From the front page:
    A further aim of the forum is to strive to consolidate, validate and to deepen information. In doing this we aim to remove the many misconceptions and grey areas that facilitate those who would flood the collector market with fakes.
    Comments like you have just posted: Belt and Buckle are both fine are of NO HELP to anyone, and useless really if nothing of substance is added. Do you have anything of substance other than your opinion that "Both are fine" because the belt is far from fine as far as History goes...

  7. #27
    So no one has anything on these canvas belts that puts them into the TR period? The buckle seems to be causing a few headaches too. Is it likely that the silver finish can wear off like this on a TR buckle? I found a Reichswehr buckle on a metal detecting trip that has a finish a lot like the buckle here.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    So no one has anything on these canvas belts that puts them into the TR period? The buckle seems to be causing a few headaches too. Is it possible that the silver finish can wear off like this on a TR buckle?
    Garry, i think we need to steer clear of the "Do we think .. this and that..are possible" and first concentrate on the Belt, as all dealers are saying, Typical late war HJ-Belt - for which there is no evidence at all. But for which there are plenty of users who post as we read above .. "Both are fine." well both are far from fine imho, what makes them fine when there is no evidence that the HJ had a canvass belt at any stage? Because the Army did? is that what these people are using as their point of reference? or are they simply re-parroting what some dealer has said, trusting that this dealer has done his homework and knows the facts?
    If the belt is FINE...... there must be a reason why it`s fine, so what is it? Why are we supposed to just lap up these kind of comments (They are printed too, and used by dealers all the time - not just from user Chad Williams above) and all nod our heads, when there is no evidence to support the item - at all?

  9. #29
    Well, quite :) This forum would be failing in its aim if it didn't try to dig as deeply as possible into items like this and a thousand others. If the feeling is that this belt is fine and we can establish why then that would be great.

    Edit: just to be clear, my comment about the Reichswehr buckle isn't meant in support of the buckle in post #1. Quite the opposite in fact.

  10. #30

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    Any of you, show an official regulation for the HJ where a web-belt is being mentioned:
    so from a Reichsbefehl, the Amtliches Nachrichtenblatt or the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM and its manufacturing-
    regulations or even from a sales-cataloque! An RZM paper-tag onto a web-belt doesn't say a thing! The tag shown is for a leather-
    belt.
    But above all show an official regulation where a golden colored enlisted ranks buckle is being mentioned. Would like to see it
    written down and stated!
    Last edited by wilhelm saris; 6th December 2012 at 10:32 PM.

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