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  1. #31

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    I see the tag upon the web-belt shows the indication 2. This means 2. Ausführung. This is an expression
    used in the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM.
    Normally a leather belt officially is 3.5 mm thick and made from so-called Kernstücke.
    The 2. Ausführung however is made from Halsstücke and 3.0-3.5 mm thick. This is a quality difference and is noted
    in the Herstelllungsvorschriftenis der RZM from 1936. Anyone can glue a tag for a leather belt onto a web-belt.

    The tag further shows an E, which means Einzelhandel (retail trade).
    Last edited by wilhelm saris; 6th December 2012 at 10:58 PM.

  2. #32

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    Hello

    Another RZM tag (L2 for Lederzeugfabriken) associated to a suspicious black canvas belt.
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  3. #33

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    The same tag on to a leather belt (legit).
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  4. #34

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    Rest of an RZM tag on to a presstoff belt. So why a web belt if the substitute leather exist since the middle of the war? I remember seeing a picture of a soldier with a black canvas belt, but I can not find it ...
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  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by lauri View Post
    I remember seeing a picture of a soldier with a black canvas belt, but I can not find it ...
    in post 23 of this thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by lach470 View Post
    The buckle is a early transitional buckle manufactured by Steinhauer and Luck...it came out around 1933-1935 ....
    Rob, yes and no. This one has both the pre M1/ prefix for Buckles KH as well as M1/ which was only first mentioned in early March 1935, and therefore could only have been adopted around April 1935 at the earliest. So its not a transitional period buckle, but rather a buckle produced after the transitional period (33-early 35) was over, and makers had changed to the new prefix M1/. Why both are present on this one i dont know.
    Last edited by Jo Rivett; 7th December 2012 at 01:23 AM.

  6. #36

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    post 23 = a dark olive colored web-belt. It is a brandnew item and then their color
    was dark. By use they became lighter colored.

    Rob: believe me. This buckle is crap. In no regulation there is mentioned a golden
    colored HJ-buckle for enlisted ranks. Not even for the Marine-HJ (this is obvious when
    reading the 1938 uniform-regulation as included in the Amtliches Nachrichtenblatt).
    No one of those that claim this buckle to be correct, can state this with a note or an
    announcement and in sales-catalogues you won't find it either. Maybe they had intended
    to introduce such buckle, but did not actually introduce it. It mut have been denied
    by the RJF. The so-called Steinhauer and Luck from post 1 is fixed with a golden coating.
    Last edited by wilhelm saris; 7th December 2012 at 08:19 AM.

  7. #37

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    Post 32:
    The tag shows L2. This means Lederzeugfabrik. L5 were known as belt-manufacturers
    (Riemenfabrik), but a web-belt is woven.

    If the woven structure would have been cotton, then the tag should have had the B for Baumwolle,
    so having the numbers B1 or B2 for Rohgewebe. I do not know the structure of a web-belt, so it
    even could have been an A12 manufacturer: manufacturer of stockings!

    I will return the golden enlisted buckle-subject later.

  8. #38
    Just out of personal interest, are those markings ever found on legitimate items? Obviously markings on Buckles cant be translated across to those found on small badges, and indeed small badge manufacturers skipped out the pre M1/ prefix MA/ altogether, and so you never find MA/ on a small badge, you also do not find a mix of transitional markings and M1/, for example Nr.34 -M1/34 together.... do you find this on buckles? the full name (or logo as is here, STL) KH prefix as well as M1/ ? seems a bit overboard to me?

  9. #39

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    I do not know if this is possible with MA and M1, but with buckles I have seen it
    with some occasions as with the shown buckle with KH (Koppelschlosshersteller) and
    M4/49, which is Steinhauer & Lück.
    The buckle is okay, but not the golden coating!

  10. #40

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    I said I would return the golden coated buckle from post 1 and specifically what is said
    in the regulations about HJ-buckles and its color. Maybe I will give information with two posts:

    Uniformen der HJ, 1933;
    The naval guy on page 13 wears a regular DJ-buckle; with page 14 the regular HJ buckle, which was
    not in golden color;
    Uniformen der HJ, 1934:
    ibid as 1933;

    Bekleidung und Ausrüstung der HJ from January 15, 1934:
    page 18-19 shows a Marine HJ-Führer. He wears a black belt and the regular HJ-buckle (HJ-Schloss). No mention of gold;
    page 20-21 shows a light colored buckle with the figure. The text is as with page 18;
    page 23: text as before;
    page 24: Marine-DJ, wearing the regular DJ-buckle;
    page 28: ibid.
    With a later description in the section Bekleidungsstücke der Marine-HJ nothing was said about different color buckle;
    pages 104-105-106: here is included the description for the HJ and DJ belt and buckle. Page 106 mentions Neusilberblech.
    The further text does not include a golden version. In a later hand-typed addendum no changes in color for the buckle is included;

    Verordnungsblatt der HJ: the years 1933, 1934, 1935 nor 1936 do mention the introduction of a golden buckle. Not at all
    for the Marine-HJ. March 21, 1935 things about this force were explained. No golden buckle is mentioned.
    June 4, 1937 the regular HJ-buckle for wearing by the DJ is mentioned. No change in color. The buckle had to be worn since January 1938.
    Per July 16, 1936 the Verordnungsblatt was renamed as Amtliches Nachrichtenblatt;

    Reichsbefehl from February 12, 1937:
    here the leaders buckle is being mentiond first: HJ-Feldbindenchloss. This is as such noted in the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM from April
    10, 1937. It is said: legiertem Aluminiumblech.

    Rundschau-Deutsches Schneiderfachblatt from October 13, 1934. Page 1706:
    Marine HJ: black belt in contrary to the brown belt for regular HJ. This is specifically noted. No other color for the buckle was mentioned or included;

    Reichsbefehl from March 18, 1938: the order to change old DJ buckles into the HJ version. No mention in this order for gold or gold colored.
    Last edited by wilhelm saris; 7th December 2012 at 11:52 AM.

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