Early hollow-back Hitler Youth achievement badges

Garry

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Does anyone have experience with these hollow-back HJ Leistungsabzeichen? I've seen a few over the last years and I've attached pictures of one which is currently up for sale on a dealer's site. All of those had very low numbers which would of course indicate that hollow-back badges were produced for a short while in the early period 1934/early 1935. The one pictured has a really nice look to it but I was wondering what you guys think about these hollow badges?

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I don't know much about these badges, but in my opinion that they are OK.

Here's another from Philipp Militaria with number 2226.

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the finish looks good and the numbering looks like it was period done so i would have one :thumb:
 
Does anyone have experience with these hollow-back HJ Leistungsabzeichen? I've seen a few over the last years and I've attached pictures of one which is currently up for sale on a dealer's site. All of those had very low numbers which would of course indicate that hollow-back badges were possibly produced for a while in the early period 1934/early 1935. The one pictured has a really nice look to it but I was wondering what you guys think about these hollow badges?

Is`nt that the one off of the JC site Gary?
I`m not sure about them, The pin doesn`t look `right` to me.
 
I know very little about them unfortunately Dean. I like the look of Jamie's badge and I believe that these hollow-backs are period but I can't personally show anything which would prove that. What we need to do I think is to get as many examples as possible into one thread and have a good look at them/discuss them. Perhaps we have members with access to period sources which specifically mention the hollow-backs. That would be excellent.

There are two early types around: the hollow badges (I have yet to see one with a maker) and the solid badges with maker (no RZM). The vast majority of course are from the RZM period but I haven't come across any references which discuss the early ones in detail.

Let's all get our heads together and see whether we can push this one on.
 
The vast majority of course are from the RZM period
Garry, they were introduced in 1934? so therefore all of them were from the RZM period :001_smile:
BUT, this was the start of the RZM markings, and as we know from the early announcements, makers were doing what they wanted right up into 1935 and beyond. These were most certainly not all ordered through the RZM or a Großhändler back in the start, and taking the amount of makers into consideration and the size of Germany, i cant see any reason why they could not be original.

Regards the ".....Pin does not look right to me" Not wise to even go there. What the majority of collectors *think* they know about pins and attachments today is laughable, based on nothing other than comparison, and has absolutely nothing to do with history.
In fact, it`s actually a Plus for this item to have a pin that does not fit in with the majority, that is more than acceptable and correct.
Most early items made by obscure makers in an incorrect way usually do have weird attachments. You should be aware, that the maker of badges and awards, would most certainly have not, made the attachment as well. Not just in 1934, but all the way through to 2011 :001_rolleyes: I already covered this topic some time ago here.

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Footnote: When i say that makers were doing "what they wanted.." i don't mean they were deliberately going against laws and rules, we have to remember how Big the German Reich was, and how any NS Item, official or not, was being produced by tens of thousands of backyard makers for 15 years prior to this. They did not have email and TV like we have today, so any new Laws and changes were slow to reach every makers ears, and every area, and even after they did, slow to implement. That`s why we read the same RZM announcements over and over even years after they were first Published, reminding Makers of the rules and how they should either make, or mark certain items.

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Let's all get our heads together and see whether we can push this one on.

That would be great if it could be concluded either way about these early Hollow badges.

Plus, thanks for your advice Metallwarenfabrik, VERY helpful
 
The Braunschweig badge springs to mind, first Hollow then RZM marked and Solid.
 
Just going through your Mitteilungsblätter for 1934 at the moment Jo to see if there are any clues. The HJ achievement badge was introduced 5 days after the order in Ausgabe 2 1934-1 governing the control of party equipment clothing and badges/insignia so I'm hopeful that I'll find something.

Thinking logically, the fact that the hollow-backs and the solid achievement badges (with maker but no RZM mark) both existed in this early period could mean that only the design of the badge was passed to manufacturers i.e. they weren't given specific manufacturing instructions. Seems odd though. Surely there was an approval procedure where samples were made - even at that very early stage? The other scenario of course is that the hollow-back was the first production design approved by the RJF but which was found to be unsuitable which led to a revision and the passing of a solid design to the manufacturers.
 
Thinking logically, the fact that the hollow-backs and the solid achievement badges (with maker but no RZM mark) both existed in this early period could mean that only the design of the badge was passed to manufacturers i.e. they weren't given specific manufacturing instructions. Seems odd though. Surely there was an approval procedure where samples were made - even at that very early stage?
Nope, check Ausgabe 12, August 15, 1934 :001_tt2: Thats the first mention of HJ-Standartmuster, so we have gained a few months now from the intro until the first mention/announcement.

edit: And in Ausgabe 15, September 8th, they announce that these Standartmuster are now being made. So we now have a definite 4 month period where we know there were no Standartmuster..
weeeeeeeeee, this is fun:bounce:
 
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Ausgabe 17, September 22, concerning HJ-BDM-DJ Badges, including as well the HJ-Sportabzeichen.. it asks Grosshändler to contact the Reichsjugendführung and inform them of the Non-conform stuff they have left, and ask for the Guide lines concerning these items, to see if there is still a possibility for them to be used / Sold.
So there's your proof that non-conform stuff was still in circulation in September 1934. (or better phrased, that there was Non-conform stuff, like these hollow badges)
I think that should be enough proof really ?
 
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Yes, I've been noting things as I go through these. I'm up to 19/1934 so far and as you say, interesting stuff and yes, the agreement dated the 8th of September in 15 1934-1 proves, as you say, that there was clearly non-standard equipment, badges etc in circulation up to that point.

The problem I see here, as far as finding a reference for the hollow-backs is concerned, is that the RJF was clearly able to issue contracts directly to manufacturers for certain items (see note on leader lanyards for example in 15 1934-1 8th of September 1934 and 17 1934, 22nd of Sept 1934 where the RJF takes control of cloth insignia). With that in mind I'm not sure I'm going to find anything in the Mitteilungsblätter and that the RJF is more likely to have covered the appearance and design of the achievement badge in an RJF Verordnungsblatt. What do you think?

Clearly I'm going to continue to work my way through the RZM Mitteilungsblätter though :)
 
the RJF is more likely to have covered the appearance and design of the achievement badge in an RJF Verordnungsblatt. What do you think?
Yes 100%, same as the SS-Beschaffungsamt would have with SS items. There will be continuous mentioning of a few items related, but would most likely direct any queries and the like to the RJF after that and not go into any big detail. All you need now, are the RJF verordnungsblätter for that period and you`ll be home and dry. Although i see no reason to question these Hollow back HJ badges anyway.
 
Totally agree. These hollow-back badges are nice items and if I had the money I would have bought the Jamie Cross badge a long time ago. W Saris is very likely to have what I need but he doesn't like me so I guess that leaves the conventional route with the Bundesarchiv as the only other option :001_smile:
 
Totally agree. These hollow-back badges are nice items and if I had the money I would have bought the Jamie Cross badge a long time ago. W Saris is very likely to have what I need but he doesn't like me so I guess that leaves the conventional route with the Bundesarchiv as the only other option :001_smile:
The Bundesarchive in Koblenz has the complete series:
Verordnungsblatt der Reichsjugendführung der NSDAP, 1933-1945 [NSD 43/15].

If we had any member here from there, or near there, we could all throw some money together for his time and costs in booking an appointment to go and copy the lot. It would be a massive help in all areas of the HJ.

ps: and it`s not just you he doesn't like :yo: i somehow think that i have ended up on his unlike-list as well.
 
... the complete series:
Verordnungsblatt der Reichsjugendführung der NSDAP, 1933-1945 [NSD 43/15].

If we had any member here from there, or near there, we could all throw some money together for his time and costs in booking an appointment to go and copy the lot. It would be a massive help in all areas of the HJ. ...

If you can wait so long, I don't mind using some of my summer vacation next year. I will also pay a part of the project, if someone else will do the job.

Henrik
 
If you are thinking of clubbing together to raise some money to send someone, why don't you just write to the archive in Koblenz & pay them to copy the files you need? I doubt that that they will charge that much, especially if you already know the reference numbers to the files. It's the searching that takes the time & costs the money, if you already know that then it's just a case of copying the file which will cost less.
 
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