Let's talk about the 'Deutsches Jungvolk knife' and the 'BDM knife'

Garry

Admin
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
8,472
Thanks Received
3,049
Location
Germany
This is a thread dedicated to getting to the bottom of the various stories about the so-called 'DJ' and 'BDM' knives.





This thread was superceded in Nov 2012 by expanded HJ-Wiki pages on the:

DJ knife
BDM knife













You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Updated post #1. Looking for additions from you now guys. Have you seen a useful post on another forum? Anything else which needs to go into post 1?

Please post what you find and I'll update accordingly.
 
posted at WAF about the DJ dagger/knife:
I am no "dagger lover" and much is told since the sixties and even earlier, which never was stated. Neither with an actual document nor a photograph of use. It is my personal opinion that stories about vets in many occasions are dealer's inventions for a better selling of their stuff! To get more money out of the item!

In the booklet "Aufbau und Abzeichen der Hitler-Jugend", dated April 1940 (and mainly spread since 1941) page 90 says: HJ-Fahrtenmesser. The further text mentions:
Members from the HJ and DJ do wear the HJ-Fahrtenmesser, the allowance for wearing is when the Pfimpfenprobe was done. In no HJ regulation whatsoever a dagger for the DJ is being mentioned and of course not at all a knife or dagger for girls. The last would be against nature and rules to "arm females"!

There is no evidence even that such daggers were planned in early war. Such items were not mentioned in the "Amtliches Nachrichtenblatt" nor the "Reichsbefehl" anyway. There was no mention in the "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei" about a new entry (Neuzugang) for a DJ-dagger or knife. Not even until the end of 1942. The only thing which changed were the leather parts. They changed into a substitute material known as Supronband UG. Don't you think they would have mentioned it in this periodical? It is possibility they "existed" on a drawing table, but then it would have been decided as "auf Kriegsdauer zurückgestellt" (to be waited when the war was over). This is known for other items! Who knows some concern has produced them to get them introduced and accepted by the Reichsjugendführung. But if then aluminum or light weight metals were used is even more questionable!

BUT.....to end my post: until any of the collectors is able to show us such evidence it is my and other HJ interested persons opinion the stories about these knives are bogus, inventions from those that suck money from the collectors (not having enough knowledge). Who started it: the disreputable major James (Jim). P. Atwood? Do we really know what he put one over on a person?
 
Last edited:
The problem with Jim Atwood, is pretty much the same as we have today with a few of the big Dealers, especially in the USA, they are known forgers, and corrupt as can be, yet at the same time write books, purporting to educate, and share their vast knowledge. So many collectors are stuck between two worlds when it comes to certain names, between Fantasy and "slightly" adapted History.. in the name of filling certain pockets you understand. We know that at no point in the Third Reich history, are separate DH knives mentioned or introduced, in no Mtbl. or otherwise, all there is, are Vet bring back stories, and where do these stories usually first start? with either the corrupt forgers themselves, or through their friends.... it still happens today, and anyone who visits the European shows will know, the same faces sitting behind the same tables, selling the same POS, that everyone in the Room knows is fake, yet nobody would take the step to flip over that guys table... (except me)

I had an interesting conversation with Fredrick Stephens about these knives in October last year, and his response somewhat mirrors Wims above. Remember though, that a good majority of collectors at WAF and the GDC forum will own one of these, or previously commented on them in a good light, so dont expect any miracles there.
 
I don't care about other forums Jo. I pitched in purely to drop links back to good discussions on our forum and to join Russ and Fred in letting the dealers on that thread know that we are still out there - watching. I felt a bit sorry for the inimicus guy because he's the one now stuck in a dilemma. I still wonder whether he got his knife from Weinand or another dealer with a guarantee. Would explain some of the opinions expressed in that thread in my opinion.

I don't want to get into it here but I noticed a post from someone on WAF the other day wondering why the Atwood birdshead dagger is still listed on CG's site. CG's reply? 'Some believe it's real, some don't'. And this after the absolute pounding it got from you and many others. Staggering...
 
yes Garry. I copied what I said there (for the interest of this forum of course).
I expect some unfounded answer!

Thanks Wim. As you say, no evidence whatsoever to support the claims of the dealers; certainly for the so-called 'DJ' knife. The problem in my opinion are these small unmarked knives; the ones the dealers sell as 'BDM' knives. Who owned the rights to the design of a badge or insignia or a knife during the TR? Were patents/DRGM suspended during the TR or were they just reorganised under the RZM?

What I'm getting at is this: the small knife is an almost exact copy of the large HJ knife yet it doesn't have any RZM marks. This means that whoever made it was copying an RZM licensed product. Would that have been allowed during the TR? If not then this would be another nail in the coffin for these small knives I would have thought? It would also imply the impossibility of Mr Weinand's claim that these are pre-1945 production items.
 
Yep. That's what I'm thinking too :) I think that the 'DJ' knives can be safely discounted as having been made in that configuration prior to 8.5.1945 so we are just left with finding more on the so-called 'BDM' knife which is of course the base product for both types of knife and of course for the discredited RPT and Olympic knives. Any of the 'DJ' and ''BDM' knives with RZM marks must also be discounted.
 
Sometimes it helps to re-post old pictures from other threads, and remember the wording on this advert, as well as the price, when thinking about the Fantasy DJ knives.. ..Assembled post was... $5,95 per piece.
If you bought this in the 1950s for $6.-, just how would you tell today it was definitely a fake? did anyone keep a few of these aside and have they inspected them, documented the "differences" that are found on these vs Originals?? many "daggers" collectors would have trouble with that question alone, but still they just "Know" that special DJ knives were "introduced" towards the end of the war.....? I am seeing a young boy, it`s 1945.. he is wearing a printed armband, in fact two! and he is holding his New DJ dagger that has the motto Jungsturm Voran!

Vorwärts Kameraden, es geht Rückwärts :crying:

You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Yes, it is timely to present advertisements such as this one.

We often see "tagged & bagged" "original" HJ fahrtenmesser being sold by dealers, or for sale on forums, as surplus, un-issued items. These statements alone often lead the reader to believe there were a lot of these "un-issued" knives around at the time of liberation or at wars end. And, they certainly command very high prices, the key priority for any dealer. So, how in-convenient this must be to the theory that the "DJ" knives were introduced as the original HJ/DJ knives became scarce! Sadly though, many collectors believe everything they are told by dealers, and they buy the story rather than the item. It is not logical that these "DJ/BDM" knives exist for the resons that they are being told by the dealers. Veteran bringbacks are the key line being used, but there is no real chronological aspect being presented with this "evidence" to support their claims.

The WAF thread shows that dealers are the only believers of the story, with the collectors that have actually shelled out a lot of money for these, now keeping silent. Inimicus appears to be on the fence, preserving future buying rights from the brethren. The most recent post on that thread at the time of this writing, is from Bob Iqbal, wondering if there is a "union" of dealers offering "health" insurance. Well Bob, there is, and you are already a member of it: The Max Certified Dealers.

Even though Bob's comment is tongue in cheek, the underlying message speaks volumes.

And his opening line? "Boy, those dealers are all crooks and are well organized."

Regards

Russ
 
Yep, good analysis of the thread Russ. Inimicus is stuck in the middle playing Devil's Advocate because he doesn't have any actual knowledge of his own to fall back on. He's talking about 'bristling attitudes' because he doesn't have the slightest idea what is going on because he bought that knife based on the dealer's story. He doesn't really understand the debate and the history it has. He keeps saying that nothing has been decided and that there is no proof on either side of the debate. Well, we can show him very strong and clear proof that there was no mention of a knife produced exclusively for the BDM and the Deutsches Jungvolk in the period literature but I have a feeling that he doesn't actually want anyone to do that. If he were thinking straight he would notice that the dealers haven't challenged us to show some proof. No, they know better than to do that in public.

All we can do is to hope that lots of people read these various DJ knife threads, particularly this one. Let's work to make it the most comprehensive thread out there. The big advantage we have here at hj-research is that we are not beholden to dealers. I don't and will never take sponsorship money because I feel that any forum that does so loses its impartiality to a degree.

Oh, did you see the guy 'JohnZ' defending Wittmann's 1920s HJ knife towards the latter part of the thread and putting the date of the NSDAP coming into power in question: " So, Tom's claim for the very early mark is correct unless we can assume that the Nazis took over in 1933." Did he really say 'assume'?? He did!! It can be argued that although the NSDAP gained power when Hitler was appointed Chancellor on 30.1.1933 that they did not gain majority power until the election in March but that is just splitting hairs when talking about the HJ Fahrtenmesser and Wittman's claim that the knife was made in the 1920s. I don't get how anyone could interpret his words in any other way...
 
In his defence Stu he made no secret of wanting to sell it and he did at least link the thread. Now, with such a quick sale and with the ink still wet on that thread you have to wonder who bought the knife... If I were a cynical person I might imagine that the buyer is the dealer he got it from or at the very least, a dealer. Why? A quick sale would perhaps calm the nerves of others who own a DJ knife and who have been watching that thread with interest.
 
I think at least it was good of the seller to start the discussion thread prior to listing the knife and to participate and encourage the debate. What can you do after you provide the facts if someone still wants to buy a questionable item? Save the images and keep a lookout. Commonly dealers ask around 800 USD for these things, and a 400 profit is nothing to laugh at, I would not be surprised to see this listed on a dealer site in the near future.
 
its amazing how quick it has sold, especially with the big debate about them does smell fishy doesnt it, if i was a casual buyer after reading the thread i wouldnt touch it
 
its amazing how quick it has sold, especially with the big debate about them does smell fishy doesnt it, if i was a casual buyer after reading the thread i wouldnt touch it

Remember the Fake Golden HJ at Kai Winklers House of History...for ONLY €800.- whereas the same fake was/is at Weitzes for €3000.- ... LOL.. same thing, some fakes will cost you X amount at one dealer, and XXXXX amount at others.
What IS this.. "nothing has been proven" crap? That would allow me to upload pics of a Fantasy HJ sword with Dragon-head and say that until someone proves it was not period..IT IS !
 
It will be seen again, there is no doubt about it. Weitze as sold them (to probe that it was good he shwed also a picture of the knife in Littlewood's book) and will be sold again. Of course there will be always defenders of this type of knife.... all of them with interest or affected for the knives. In Spain we say that "the blindest person is the one who doesnt want to see".

Still, Wim, Russell, Garry (and many more) WELL DONE for your work and for your great comments. Still, there will be who dont want to see....

WELL DONE GUYS!!

Regards

Antonio
 
Back
Top