Ernst Pack & Söhne (E. Pack) HJ knives

Garry

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I'm interested in learning more about these 'E. Pack' knives. I'm interested in the evolution of the HJ knife shape and in why these Ernst Pack knives with the strange pommel and grip attachment (pic) seem only to have existed early on and why the design was phased out. It can be shown in the period literature that the HJ knife was introduced in 1933 (the exact quote from the order dated 7.10.33 is 'a few months ago') so it seems strange to me that the standard knife and these odd-looking 'E. Pack' knives would be on the market at the same time. That seems to be at odds with normal procedure but having said that they clearly were being worn.

Also, what is the story on the Carl Wüsthof 'HJ Honour knives'? Is there any evidence that these are honour knives, or even that they are period?

Looking forward to learning more
 
I ave been collecting E. Pack HJs as well as E.pack etched blades for 25 years. If the youtube video of my Pack HJ collection does not answer all your questions please feel free to ask. ww.youtube.com/watch?v=FwQqMfjkumU&feature=plcp"]ww.youtube.com/watch?v=FwQqMfjkumU&feature=plc
 
Impressive collection DD. Nice clip although it didn't answer the question of why the standard HJ knife shape and the E Pack shape were on the market at the same time. Just want to reiterate that I'm not disputing the authenticity of E. Pack HJ knives; I'm just interested in why there were two knives of quite different appearance on the market at the same time despite the fact that the RJF had officially introduced it. Seems very odd to me that the RJF would not have said 'okay, we are introducing this knife for the HJ and it looks like this:.... And you can order it from here/buy it from here'.

In your clip you mentioned that your earliest E. Pack dates to '1932, 33'. This is interesting because it is at odds with this statement by the RJF. I'd be interested in whether you have further info that would help in understanding exactly what happened during that early phase because for me, based on the evidence, it would appear to be an impossibility that the E. Pack was on the market as the RJF's official HJ knife prior to early 1933.
 
I don't know the time when the early pieces were produced. I'm guessing. My opinion is that the non standard knives were the earliest produced prior to the standard.The attatched pix are an early HJ that I recently got for my personal collection.Good luck explaining this one.The WKC ww1 figting type knife is a great example of the earliest HJs. I am not a student of the history. All I know is what I see.


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I enjoyed the clip too. "Einheit, Freiheit, Vaterland" is associated with the Reichsbanner. it was against extreme formations like communists and actually opposed the national socialists too. Real odd to see this on a knife I must say.. the only explanation for this engraving is that it belonged to someone who had ir done as a protest or, the engraving is bogus?.

I'm active on another forum mainly but i can see myself coming tpo hj-research more often. I like the way collector experience AND the search for evidence are mixed here. Many colllectors have great and very valuable experience but do not always have knowldege of procedures and regulations, perhaps because they cant read german. I don't know but I think that its really important that both are given equal footing.
 
Glad you're enjoying the forum Freddy. Yes, as you say, very odd that this slogan is on a HJ knife. What are your thoughts DD?
 
A few comments on the video:

Its starting in 1932? a knife with the HJ diamond, that was only introduced in mid 1933, is found already in 1932?
Garry wrote:
(it would appear to be an impossibility that the E. Pack was on the market as the RJF's official HJ knife prior to early 1933.)
Yes, Historically, absolutely impossible.

It`s a nice collection, BUT? what questions were covered in this video? because i watched it three times, and i did not hear one single question asked, addressed, covered or explained? all i saw was a collection of a few knives.

Dont mean to sound negative, but this is equivalent to a Christopher Ailsby Book.... a few presented items with some commentary, but nothing in the commentary that relates to either history, manufacturing, factual or period evidence..at all.. nothing?

Good luck explaining this one.The WKC ww1 figting type knife is a great example of the earliest HJs
No good luck is needed, why would a non NS-slogan be found on a post mid-1933 knife? simple, it would not be! Its a put-together knife at best.
What gives anyone the right to classify this as "The earliest HJ knife" ?
Especially when we know, thanks to your comment, that these kind of comments, or appraisals, are originating from people like yourself, who DO NOT STUDY HISTORY?
I am not a student of the history. All I know is what I see.
Yes, this is the main problem within our hobby. Too many people blind to the documented facts, and open to theory and wild debate - because as you so rightfully say, you, and possibly many other dealers, do not study history, you only know what you see, and if you do not have a good foundation of historical facts, then you are debating on what you see without the slightest regard for History!!! It is for this reason that you and others make basic mistakes like saying that it could be from 1932, or in the case of Wittmann, 1927-1929, when History will tell you that before mid 1933, the Diamond shaped HJ badge was ... well, it simply was not... it was only first produced in mid 1933.

So if you would have studied history first, and not what you see, it would help you to make correct assumptions, or at least base any assumption on correct, and factual evidence!

If you dont consider history and logic into your "evaluations" first, and then base your findings and theories on this, you are going into wonderland with Alice and the Tom-twins... Atwood, Steele and Tony Oliver are waiting for you down there!!

@DDSDAGGERS, once again, here is the mid 1960s ad for post war knives imported from Europe to the US and sold for a few bucks.

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As a studier of daggers, you can surely help out here and:

Show us an example of these early post war $5,99.- put-together knives, and show us how they differ from pre 1945 knives? Highlight a few of the obvious errors that makers made in 1950 and in 1960 that differ radically from 1935, or 1939?
History tells us that originals were made between 1933 and 1942-1943. (ten to 12 years)
Facts tell us that they have been faked by many makers, in many countries, from 1946-2012 (almost 70 years)
Logic therefore tells us that the ratio of good to bad must be 1/10 in favor of the fakes....

So my question, Where are all these fakes? why are the vast majority of HJ knives that show up today, classed as original, because they are. Or am i mistaken? are the overwhelming amount of presented HJ knives on the internet classed as fake, with only a small amount classed as original? because logic tell us that the ratio would suggest, no, Dictate, that it must be? its the other way around.... because, as you have said, History has not been studied, only what people see, and what people think they see, and what others who have seen-and subsequently written about- has been taken into consideration.

From Tom Wittmans sales pitch, claiming that the HJ knife he is selling originates from, no sorry, Dictating that his knife is PROOF that they originated in 1927, or 1929 - proves one thing only, it proves that Thomas Wittmann does not have the first Clue about documented facts or history. So why should collectors afford this mans beliefs and what he thinks, any consideration - or any respect? apart from to laugh at him for making such an amateurish mistake? because, sorry, it is a very amateur mistake. And if he can overlook documented facts pertaining to the introduction date of the HJ fahrtenmesser, as well as the Diamond that it is adorned with, then yes, it is a very amateur mistake indeed!

Amature mistakes like this by someone with twice your expirience (50 years) says what? it says exactly what you posted, that you guys do not consult History first, or included it into any Thesis that is formed... its all about what you see, and think, and think you see, sans Histoire !!

I would be treated the same, believe me, if i jumped onto a Knights Cross thread, or EK thread, and said that they were introduced in 1934 because of a certain style of makers mark. In fact if i said this was therefore PROOF that they were.... it would not be you, or anyone else laughing at my ideas, but rather History slapping a cold, rotten fish across my face, saying "Sunshine, wake up and read a few history books before you form any opinion."
 
I don't care about the history. I care about the blades.A question was asked & I answered it. The knife I show the pix of was originally purchased from Europe for $200 2 months ago.I have been associated with the E.Pack HJs long enough to be comfortable with respect to determining their RELATIVE vintage & authenticity. The suggestion that it is a made up piece is absurd.You are reminding me why I have stayed away from the Forums for a decade. It is unlikely that I will respond again to another egotistical condescending self aggrandizing post.
 
Looks like this one has ground to a halt before it really got going. Just to pick up where we left off then; what are your thoughts on the motto on the knife you showed in post #4 DDS?

Are there any thoughts from the forum on why the standard HJ knife shape and the E Pack shape were on the market at the same time? It doesn't make sense to me but as I mentioned further up the page, period photos do show that typical E. Pack handle shape.
 
My opinion is that the different hilt configurations were not on the market at the same time. I see them as being produced early on. I see an evolution in the character of the Pack HJs.
 
Okay DDS. Just so that I understand you fully, you are of the opinion that the E. Pack is the early form of the Hitler Youth knife and that the E. Pack shape evolved over time and eventually matched the standard HJ knife shape? When do you see all of this happening? Pre-1933? Mr Wittmann is of the opinion that the Eickhorn Hitler Youth knife was the earliest type and that it was around in the late-1920s. I'm guessing that you would find his suggestion ludicrous?

What are your thoughts on what Freddy says in post #5 above?
 
I don't care about the actual dates these things were produced. I care about the relative production. I have been involved with E.pack material long enough to be comfortable with my assessment of their relative vintage & authenticity. As I said earlier I think the WKC converted WW1 fighting knife is the beginning of the diamonded youth knives & the early Packs followed it . The spanner nuts first,the earliest with the false button. The odd blade etched HJ I show in #4 was purchased from Europe 3 months ago for $200(unfortunately not by me). The etch translates Unity , Freedom , fatherland . I show it as an illustration of an odd early variation. I can not explain the the Wusthof trident & DRGM marking on a false button,spanner nut early E.Pack HJ. There are a fantastic amount of variations in these things thats what makes it so interesting. There are many more opinions than absolutes with these things. Just when you think you have seen it all .......
 
I don't care about the actual dates these things were produced.

That's a wierd kinda thing to say. "I dont care about the history" wow If that is true, how do you sell stuff with a clear conscience?

There are a fantastic amount of variations in these things thats what makes it so interesting. There are many more opinions than absolutes with these things. Just when you think you have seen it all .......

Ah, the "variation" . No disrespect to you personally but that word seems to be often nothing more than a euphimism for "we don't have a clue", As such the variation can and has been exploited. I mean, look at the ridiculous situation with those DJ and BDM knives. I think thy have been successfully exposed as trash but what's up with the dealers who still sell them?!
 
I have been involved with E.pack material long enough to be comfortable with my assessment of their relative vintage & authenticity.
Would you not agree that this is why we are in such a mess today, because of this lax, or "Relative" way of appraising as well as attributing?
Without looking for solid facts, in the case of the HJ/DJ/BDM knives the solid facts are that the HJ/DJ Fahrtenmesser was introduced only in 1933, and there was NEVER, EVER, any special, or different DJ or BDM knife at ANY time during the TR period - but because of this "Relative" attitude, an idea will be put forward that the HJ knife could actually have been introduced in 1932... and hell, the more people think about it, and the more "relative" you take the facts, 1932 will change to 1930, and as we have just seen with Wittmann, the "relative" way of assessing and appraising is now going back to 1927! All "relative" - after all its only a few years each way - why not?

People who take an interest in History, and who are sick and tired of this "relative" attitude towards the hobby, go looking for facts, and in most cases find them. In this case, its a definite date for the introduction of HJ/DJ knife, the same knife, always mentioned as being for both the HJ and DJ.

One last question: When you say "Relative Vintage & Authenticity" do you really mean that? You are comfortable with an assessment of "relative authenticity"? and of "relative vintage"? if so, what is your assessment based on? relative to what? seeing as you are not interested in History, you obviously place no importance, (or little importance) on facts and history, so what are your appraisals "relative" to? because you dont have any solid facts to compare anything too - seeing as you are not interested in them?

Possibly comparing your "Relative" ideas about one item to those formed by another dealer or collector who also uses the "Relative" way of appraising, thus ending up with dates, and facts, and ideas that are in total contradiction to what history tells us, or those - who bother to open up the books. But indeed in-tune to the financial side of the market.

Hope this came out right and not too complicated. I do realize that you are not alone in your "Relative" way of looking at the hobby, but expect sparks when discussing with others who do not accept this "Relative" way, and who prefer to ignore everything that the "Relative" dealers and sellers preach, regardless of who they are, how many books they have written or what they purport to know.

Not alls lost, its a perfect example of why there is so much tension in the hobby, with documented facts and historical evidence taking a back seat over the lax, care-free, laid back "Relative" opinions of those who, as you have said, have no interest in History, no interest in dates, and are comfortable with your: "assessment of their relative vintage & authenticity."

after all, it`s not called the HJ-Relative-Forum, but the HJ-Research Forum.
 
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If you want to discuss this in person I would be glad to meet with you at the SOS. I will be at Left Wall 29 & 30.
 
DDS,

I had to edit your last post. You may not like the presented arguments but if you are going to respond, which I hope you will continue to do, please keep it civil. Thanks.
 
If you want to discuss this in person I would be glad to meet with you at the SOS. I will be at Left Wall 29 & 30.

Well no, not really, thats what Forums are for, to save people like me, coming from Switzerland to the USA, just to have you answer what you could easily do right now.
 
There is mention on a German forum of E. Pack u. Söhne producing unlicenced knives early on. No references unfortunately but information nevertheless.
 
There is mention on a German forum of E. Pack u. Söhne producing unlicenced knives early on. No references unfortunately but information nevertheless.
Between Mid-1933 and early 1934? or 1934-1935?
 
I am reasonably certain the Spanner nut Pack HJs are pre 1934 & the & the false buttons the earliest of the spanners. Sometime in 34 pack was producing the standard type (pinned grip) HJs. It appears to me that in 34 & 35 the pack HJ was pinned/low ricasso. 1936 I see the transition of low to high ricasso which ran into 1939 dated pieces. Pack was slow to change to the smaller diamonds like most of the other companies did in the transitional period. Most of the Pack HJs have the small diamond.
 
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