HJ sharpshooter (Scharfschütze) badge RZM M1/14

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Hello, HJ sharpshooter badge (HJ-Scharfschützenabzeichen) RZM M1/14

mfg Brian

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I dont belive it is original for 1 minute

Oh dear, i hate it, and am pretty sure it`s a 70`s reproduction, it has all the tell tale signs of a reproduction, including the pin plate and discoloring on the reverse, not to mention the material, the way in which the plate is affixed, the prefect RZM logo and the typical way in which the M1 number is placed. I have to go to work in a bit, and will only be back online on Sunday, but will elaborate more if needed.
 
Hallo
....So hat jeder seine Meinung...... Das Stück stammt, ....genauso wie das Tagungsabzeichen des Gebietes Westfalen und das DJ Leistungsabzeichen, von der gleichen Person.......
mfg Brian
:germany
 
First dead give away

I still have a few minutes before i leave, so here is the first part.
I already mentioned this on this forum a few times, but don't have time to look for the old posts and link them here, This pin plate plate is soldered on post war, using a Gas (flame) soldering iron and the wrong solder. The discoloring is a dead give away. Once you change the images into negative, you can clearly see it. For comparison below, are images of:

• First single negative, with arrows, points to what i am talking about, the traces that the heat (flame) has left on the material when soldering the pin plate on. this is NOT NORMAL, and should not be observed on period items (unless of course someone has replaced the pin recently)

• Images of two FAKE badges, that clearly show the discoloring (one is yours) and images of two small enamel badges that are genuine.

• Negative image of a 1934-35 produced golden HJ badge reverse, that shows, how period badges should be, NO discoloring.

The more you research the techniques, and the way in which items were "pieced" together back then, the easier it becomes to weed out recent (20-30 years old) fakes.

There are other pointers as well for this particular badge that you have shown, but i have no time.. until Sunday. :yo:

**My opinion, is based on decades of doing nothing else except studying small, trivial aspects of small enamel badges, of course you don't have to listen to me, and at the end of the day you are free to believe whatever you like, after all, it is your badge, and this is a forum, where collectors and researchers share their options with each other, and try and help each other out.

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Last pic, the HJ golden enamel badge in Negative.
After you have spent many hundreds of boring hours behind the pc, playing with images of fakes compared to Genuine badges, sometimes you start to notice things :001_huh: There are more tricks that involve the Obverse as well, but that will be left for a new thread when i have more time.

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I see what you mean, Jo. This is aweful. I truly get the creeps when only a wrong soldering technique reveil a fake. IMO the front and even the reverse would pass as original if not of that barely visible greenish hue. So it is the same story as with the DJ shooting award. In the future I will have to train my eyes better. :001_unsure:


Regards, Wim
 
Hallo
Das hört sich alles sehr plausibel an aber es wäre doch hilfreich wenn jemand ein original M1/14 HJ-Scharfschützenabzeichen zum Vergleich zeigen würde.....
mfg Brian
 
I see what you mean, Jo. This is aweful. I truly get the creeps when only a wrong soldering technique reveil a fake. IMO the front and even the reverse would pass as original if not of that barely visible greenish hue. So it is the same story as with the DJ shooting award. In the future I will have to train my eyes better. :001_unsure:


Regards, Wim
Wim, here are a few more, some changed into negative, but with the others you can clearly see.
Another point to note, is the modern (or post war) Steel needle. On the vast majority of these, the new steel needle can be seen. Some are done better than others, and with some, the enamel is good, with others it sunken.

Of course this "gas soldering iron" tell-tale mark will not always apply to all post war badges, and this is where my next point starts.... When we see and discuss fakes today, the vast majority are from the early 70`s, when, it seems that Faking small enamel got popular, But what about the fakes from 1945-1960 in Germany and Austria by German makers with expirience? I believe that the older, better generations of fakes started here. And i also believe that it is not possible anymore to identify with 100% accuracy all the post war European fakes. (I am referring to long before Nick Morigi & his china-man friends) So some of these will now be in the 5,6,7 maybe 10th generation already.. who knows.

Just think about the NS-Arbeitsdienst Braunschweig Abt 4/305 badge, that is bogus, Hüsken has one for sale, it is even pictured in his book as Very rare.. Toby R. had one for sale the other month, lots of dealers do right now.. only thing is, This unit never existed and the badge is an early Bogus, or fantasy unit if you will. ( I talked to Dr Jonas myself about it after reading all the info on WAF, and he confirmed it hands down as well) So this is the problem, lots and lots of what we have come to accept as Genuine, is, in some cases, even total Fantasy... Sad but true.

**Note picture three, the positive and negative of the Fake badge on Christines site (now run by someone else, she gave up a while back) I will talk more about this one on Sunday, note the Carbon on the reverse? and show other examples of this same carbon, also how you can detect it under the Enamel.

EDIT: Reply to post 11 by Brian. COMPARISON is not the way to go here, this is the biggest mistake the collectors have always made, compare, and if it looks the same, or the same as the one in a certain book, then it must be OK ?? no, in depth study is the only way to go, turn to History first.

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well if this is the case 90% of badges in a lot of peoples collections are bad,i have looked through lots of threads of diff makers and these marks are visable on most around the pin area, as for the m1/14 badges you say the position of the maker mark is a typical 70's placement so are all m1/14's bad as all i have seen have had the maker mark in the same position.
 
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have looked through my shooting badge and i only have 1 by this maker, , im happy with it and have shown it when i first bought it to a lot of people i would trust and they all gave it :thumbup: .if your method shows it to be bad thats your opinion and your method which if is correct i dont understand why its not universally recognised as the best way to spot fakes ?? i personally am happy with it.

not the best pic as i scanned it from a pic

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Fascinating argument and I will read this thread with interest. However it always amazes me why fakers go to so much trouble to produce so many low cost items !

Nick
 
Agree with Nick, a very good discussion here. I have a lot of respect for both Stu and Jo's opinions on badges. I'm glad I don't collect badges, this area obviously requires a lot of study and experience.
 
Hi Stu,

Well, I have converted your badge to "negative", you can see the result attached.

I think it is a good one, dont you think so?

Without any doubt, this type of badge is too complicated, too good faked to collect, at least for me.

Regards

Antonio

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Agree with Nick, a very good discussion here. I have a lot of respect for both Stu and Jo's opinions on badges. I'm glad I don't collect badges, this area obviously requires a lot of study and experience.
I also agree with you, it is a great source of information that can be found here. :clap2: Some people here seem to know a lot more than I do, even so I have been collecting for almost 30 years by now. This is one of the reasons I joined this forum, though I actually do not even collect HJ items.
 
well if this is the case 90% of badges in a lot of peoples collections are bad,i have looked through lots of threads of diff makers and these marks are visable on most around the pin area, as for the m1/14 badges you say the position of the maker mark is a typical 70's placement so are all m1/14's bad as all i have seen have had the maker mark in the same position.
Hi Stu, i agree, at least 90% and in general (taking all awards into consideration as well) more than 90%.
Yes, note the Fake M1/63 badge too, and the RZM logo, and placement.

have looked through my shooting badge and i only have 1 by this maker, , im happy with it and have shown it when i first bought it to a lot of people i would trust and they all gave it :thumbup: .if your method shows it to be bad that's your opinion and your method which if is correct i dont understand why its not universally recognised as the best way to spot fakes ?? i personally am happy with it.

Why? because up until a few weeks ago i have never mentioned this method before to anyone, or on any forum except here, only on my website. And that was only recently. I can see from your replies that you are getting a little hot under the collar, and thats not why i posted here, so i`ll cut this short. If you believe that what you have is good, and accept the positive responses you have had on your items, then good for you, they are your items, so that's all that matters. Note what i said above regarding the Fantasy Unit Braunschweig badge, that everyone, including members here like Toby R, (and weitze, Hüsken, Kelly, emedals, gottlieb to name a few)all believed, and still do, that it`s real, and very rare! only recently has it come to light, through extensive, individual research, that it cant be authentic, and we are now in 2011 ! so how many are in collections and good? J.R Cones book in 1983 went into even more detail about them, saying that there was a stockpile stolen from Germany pre-war etc etc.... So from the date they first appeared, (maybe 1960-70) untill 2011 they have become real and rare, even though they never were? What i am trying to say, is that this is a prime example of just how much Poo there is in collections, all because certain people have given certain items the thumbs up !!

Now, not to point fingers at any one person, but think about what i have written, my research with regards this Discoloring, is my research, solely for my own use and something that i have been doing for a while now, after accidentally stumbling across this method. It is not a method that i use to determine the Authenticity of small badges at all ! I rely on many more pointers, History being the first one, rational thinking the second, and of course knowing that most of what is being offered can not be period. This was the case 40 years ago even, so today it is worse. It is simply something that caught my attention when looking at post war badges in more detail, after understanding the Production techniques, construction, the Enamel process and more recently the role that Sub-contractors, (in the case of small badges the M2 license holders, ) played in making badges using the same dies for a variety of makers. And as i mentioned above, i have only ever seen this typical discoloring on post war badges. I can nail it down a bit more too, the early Austrian Fakes, and very good (supposed early) fakes, do not show this discoloring, so imo these fakes were made by Original makers post war, or made in the 50`s when the soldering technique was still the same, or made by European makers who understood their craft. This will be a reason, why you can not use 'my method' to instantly determine all fakes :closedeyes:

Most collectors really need to wake up a little too ! The 'reasoning' part, is such:
We collect items made between 1920-1944, by a few German makers. Thats 22 years of on-off production-on-demand.

Since 1945, up until this very day, these items we collect have been reproduced by thousands and thousands of F(makers) in more countries than we could shake a stick at. That's 66 years.

Take into consideration the period items lost and destroyed as well. The math tells us that the Ratio of Good/Bad must be 90/10 if not more. That's not my opinion, that's just rational reasoning.

Now to cut down the Period items figures even more. Most items, like the HJ Shooter badge, were only made from a certain time, ie: not from 1920 through 1944 non-stop) and most Awards were made for only 4-5 years in most cases, so the ratio of Good-Bad now becomes 95/5 if not more.

The only way around it, is to collect one item, and one item only, and do as much research on that time period, and every aspect of the 3rd Reich that relates to that one item as possible. After many years, and many books, and lots of wasted cash, if you are still interested, things will start to fall into place, and dots will able to be connected. But to find such a person who is dedicated to one item, is hard today, as the collector is not really interested in history, but more in what people tell him.

Sorry to hammer this in again, but once more, we turn to the Fantasy Unit Braunschweig badge. If anyone who was really interested in this particular badge, and the History behind it, had done some homework and honest research, instead of blindly believing what people like Cone and Hüsken tell them, and publish.. they would have worked out decades ago that no such unit existed, and saved future collectors from getting burnt.

I don't think i will continue with this thread, my point was not to start a fight over who has a fake or not, or who`s opinion is better. Collectors do not like to have their items dissed, i know this, and the vast majority are happy to believe that their stuff is good as long as the right people tell them that it is. The trait though, is that if 10 people of the right caliber say it`s good, and 1 person from god knows where comes along and says otherwise, he usually gets jumped on, this is why, the modern day militaria reference books sell like hot cakes, Not a drop of Factual history in any of them, instead, many pictures to compare. :001_unsure:
 
Metallwarenfabrik, thanks for your views and sharing the experiences.

Without any doubt, just reading all of you, a person here can learn so much.

It is a really interesting conversation here and hope we can all learn more about the points of view from the people here.

Thanks

Regards

Antonio
 
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