Pre-1938 Hitler Youth shoulder strap with oakleaf device?

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Hello

I don't know if this oakleaf had a signification on a pre 38 shoulder strap. Probably added later :confused1:

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Strange one. I've never seen that before. It looks like maybe an SA oakleaf from a collar tab or something added to the strap. Who knows where and when.
 
I think this has been post war altered , A person of this rank pictured ( oberbannführer) would not hump up an HJ enlisted rank strap.
 
Thanks for your response.
I will try to identify the exact origin of these collar tabs oakleaf (Stahlhelm or SA as Darin said).
 
The price was very cheap, so this one is on it's way to me. Probably humped up with the cypher but a bargain for an Oberbann 1 strap. Any results of your research to determine where the cypher came from Lauri?
 
Hello Darin
Yes a good opportunity due to the price! I've seen pictures of the Stahlhelm bund with the same cypher on the collar tabs, including an interesting photo depicting Stahlhelm and Jungstahlhelm members with HJ lads. Why not a non official tradition after the absorption of the Jungstahlhelm in the Hitlerjugend? (even i'm very sceptical!!)
 
Thanks for the reply Lauri. A possiblity I suppose. After I have the strap in hand I can inspect it more closely, but yes at the price I could not say no!
 
I'm just looking at the letter written on 26.6.1933 by a man called Schröder from the Stahlhelm Landesverband Oldenburg/Ostfriesland to all units where he informs them about the details of the incorporation of the Scharnhorst Jugend into the HJ. The uniforms are discussed including the badge worn on leaders' collars. The letter says that no final decision had yet been made on whether the boys would be permitted to continue to wear the badge once they were members of the HJ so it could be the case that a decision was made to permit the badge to be worn on the shoulder strap after the date of this letter. Perhaps these badges were worn in this way for a short period in 1933/4 making this strap one of those worn by a Scharnhorst leader who had transferred into the HJ and been given a leadership position there?

The question now is:

is the badge on the strap there the same badge that was worn on the collars of the Scharnhorst leaders? I'm sure that one of you guys can confirm or deny the latter. Seems a good lead to follow.
 
Thanks Garry, that's maybe the right way to explain this particularity!

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Here we have it. Arrived yesterday.

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The oakleaves are anyway the form as used by all Stahlhelm-ranks in the corner of their
collar-patches. There is a left and a right form. This device was introduced by an order from
the Stahlhelm High Command at Berlin (Bk/IIa 1625/32), so in 1932.

The Scharnhorst was "die Jugend des Stahlhelm" and lead by Stahlhelm. The question however
is: could a Hitler-Junge ranked person have worn such a device, as the youth in the Scharnhorst
did not use this type of badge. Only their leaders!
 
Hi Wim,

I know very little about the Scharnhorst Jugend and have virtually nothing on them here. I must admit that I assumed there would have been some kind of junior leadership position in a Scharnhorst group. If there wasn't then yes, that would definitely blow my theory out of the water that the strap might possibly have been worn for a short time after the incorporation of the Scharnhorst into the HJ :)
 
Scharnhorst Jugend group, one of them as like a DJ rune on the arm.

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Great photos Lauri. The one with the older men (second photo) clearly states the wearing of the Stahlhelm-uniform with appropriate
cap insignia, according the standards of fall 1933. The females largely do wear the "light-blue dress for the "Bund Königin Luise"
and the youngsters a uniform-mix.

The "Scharnhorst" was - when possible (möglichst) - lead by members from the "Ringstahlhelm", which were Stahlhelm-members
with age of 21 an above, that formerly had been members from the "Scharnhorst" or the "Jungstahlhelm"-organizations. Some
leaders came from other youth-organizations. The "Scharnhorst"-leaders were appointed by the Scharhorst-Ortsgruppenführer, who was a
member for the board of the Stahlhelm-Ortsgruppe. Since the early thirties training for the youth-leaders was taken care of by the
"Reichskuratorium für Jugendertüchtigung", where youth-leaders from all kinds of organizations were trained (information is largely taken
from the "Stahlhelm-Handbuch" from 1929. Other editions are available).

When in the "Scharnhorst" the youngest were not ordered for a uniform specifically, but had to wear the appropriate cap, a yellow band around the
arm and the appropriate "Scharnhorst"-insignia. Elder boys had to wear the so-called "Bundestracht" (must have specific information, but do not
know where I have put it). With the incorporation of the "Scharnhorst"organization into the HJ (order nr. 146 in the "Verordnungsblatt der
Reichsjugendführung (HJ)
" from September 2, 1933 it was specifically mentioned about the uniform:
until March 31, 1934 the "Scharnhorst"-members had to wear their old uniform with appropriate insignia for the HJ or the DJ.

It is obvious that some adapted their HJ ranking-insignia with earlier worn devices, but after March 1934 regular HJ-uniforms had to be worn. The old flags were
to be returned to the "Stahlhelm"-organization.
 
Thanks for this great source of informations about a not well known organization. I'm bluffed by your knowledge about all sorts of subject!
I tried to enlarge photos :

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well Lauri, my interest in German uniforms started back in about 1971, so over 40 years ago.
I started collecting uniform-regulations (mainly being copies as I do not need originals) of any known
German military force or political organization and have over 300 files at hand about that.
That's the material I did use for example to write my books "Aiguillettes of the Third Reich",
"Wall Plaques and Official Signboards of Hitler's Third Reich" or for example "Ringkragen und
Brustschilder im Dritten Reich
", my HJ-handbook and the series of headgear, published at Bender Publishing.
Volume 5 is released now and in later this year I will re-start writing for volume 6 (HJ and all about nazi
school systems headgear).
 
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A really good year 1971 (my date of birth) :001_smile: Thanks again for your studies and your many books. Volume 6 of the Headgear series is certainly the book that we expect the most!
 
Okay, so we are agreed then the configuration of this strap is possible/plausible? I think that the idea that this strap has something to do with the incorporation of the youth sections of the Stahlhelm has merit We know that Schirach made promises he had no intention of keeping when he was assimilating the youth organisations into the HJ and I have read a follow-up to the letter I referenced earlier in the thread which showed that he didn't keep that promise either so a short period around 1933/4 where this strap was worn with the device seems plausible I think.
 
Hi Wim,

I know very little about the Scharnhorst Jugend and have virtually nothing on them here. I must admit that I assumed there would have been some kind of junior leadership position in a Scharnhorst group. If there wasn't then yes, that would definitely blow my theory out of the water that the strap might possibly have been worn for a short time after the incorporation of the Scharnhorst into the HJ :)

The "Scharnhorst" was - when possible (möglichst) - lead by members from the "Ringstahlhelm", which were Stahlhelm-members
with age of 21 an above, that formerly had been members from the "Scharnhorst" or the "Jungstahlhelm"-organizations. Some
leaders came from other youth-organizations. The "Scharnhorst"-leaders were appointed by the Scharhorst-Ortsgruppenführer, who was a
member for the board of the Stahlhelm-Ortsgruppe. Since the early thirties training for the youth-leaders was taken care of by the
"Reichskuratorium für Jugendertüchtigung", where youth-leaders from all kinds of organizations were trained (information is largely taken
from the "Stahlhelm-Handbuch" from 1929. Other editions are available).

When in the "Scharnhorst" the youngest were not ordered for a uniform specifically, but had to wear the appropriate cap, a yellow band around the
arm and the appropriate "Scharnhorst"-insignia. Elder boys had to wear the so-called "Bundestracht" (must have specific information, but do not
know where I have put it). With the incorporation of the "Scharnhorst"organization into the HJ (order nr. 146 in the "Verordnungsblatt der
Reichsjugendführung (HJ)
" from September 2, 1933 it was specifically mentioned about the uniform:
until March 31, 1934 the "Scharnhorst"-members had to wear their old uniform with appropriate insignia for the HJ or the DJ.

It is obvious that some adapted their HJ ranking-insignia with earlier worn devices, but after March 1934 regular HJ-uniforms had to be worn. The old flags were
to be returned to the "Stahlhelm"-organization.

Ritterkreuz holder Klemens Behler is shown HERE as having been a Scharnhorst youth leader. He was born in 1921 which would have made him 13/14 around the time when the Scharnhorst was incoroprated into the HJ (where he also became a leader). I think that this opens the possibility that there were indeed leadership positions allocated for the boys within the Scharnhorst. That being the case, it would be very useful to establish how these boys were identified - what rank insignia they had.

I'm guessing that Stahlhelm would not have wanted its youth leaders demoted en masse simply because they were transferring to the HJ. The HJ were assimilating like the Borg in 1933/4 which wouldn't have been the best morale boost a youth group like the Scharnhorst could hope for. The RJF then, may well have accommodated the wish that the oakleaf rank insignia be retained but we'll need documentary evidence of course to be sure. The next question is: 'Stahlhelm youth leaders were too old to go into the HJ and could only have been HJ members if they were transferred across into higher HJ leadership positions but where is the HJ rank insignia on Lauri's strap?'. That opens the possibility that Lauri's strap is for a Scharnhorst lower leader like the Ritterkreuz holder mentioned above. Who knows but it's certainly a very interesting strap.
 
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