M7/36 E&F Hörster HJ knife with solid red enamel diamond insignia

Yes, I do enjoy WAF too and maybe I was too negative but I see that forum essentially that way. I was a little worried about the monkey and ape descriptions and so it is good to see that you meant it not in the way I thought :001_smile:
 
Trommler, i guess each forum or author or whatever will have their following of same individuals who will either agree, or disagree about certain viewpoints/items etc... the difference is though, what is being included, or used, by the members involved in a discussion?

WAF cannot be viewed as one forum, it is so big, too big in fact, that each section will differ according to those running, and commenting regularly in it. Some are good, some are very good, and other sections of WAF suck! Each section is actually suffixed with the word Forum!

On many threads at WAF and other forums, where these "personalities" have taken over and where as you say, the Status Quo seems to always be kept in balance, nothing other than senseless bitching is going on, like a girl fight with hair pulling and scratching each others eyes out. The vast majority of the individuals involved bring nothing to a debate, nothing but their own twisted opinion and viewpoint, nothing but praise for their friends, and slaps for those they consider their enemies. Solid and conclusive information & research, will always triumph over "an opinion". Many individuals follow each other the forum and try their best to give a cocky remark in order to provoke. This exact thing happened on the WAF thread mentioned here with my name, and a user called Darrel! (link) although this user knows full well that i was booted off WAF over a year ago, and have never been back, but still wants to get his 3 cents worth of ego-stabs into a thread that he has nothing to contribute to.

I am a believer in "heated debate", and would suggest that some of the most productive debates are born from "heat", born from two parties doing their utmost to trump each other using facts, honest research and logical reasoning in order to best present their case. Opinions are like bum-holes, we all have them, but once that opinion is backed up with creative and irrefutable research, research that the every day man in the street can identify with, and use himself, it goes from just being one anonymous persons opinion, to a definite reality. And on many of these kinds of threads, not just WAF, all over, all too often we see happening, exactly what is happening on WAF, the Status Quo must be restored, a fatherly voice enters the debate with a gentle "either you believe or you dont, now move on", that is a warning sign, shut up, or the thread will be closed. But what have they been discussing on that thread at WAF? and other similar threads on GDC and elsewhere? What research has been included into these threads? what are these users basing there debate on? Nothing but pork pies and a six pack, a slap for anyone who wont think like them - NO RESEARCH, no ideas, no examination of the items except to claim this and that because they know.... they know but dont show.. always the same. Those who know the most, usually know Jack.

Am i wrong? if i am wrong i would say sorry at once, if someone could possibly point me to a thread, where one of these fruit-eaters have done some outstanding, independent research? where they have actually tried to HELP a collector for once instead of strutting around like Hermann Göring and scoffing at those who dare to not agree? They are present on many forums, so it should not be hard to show some good research that they have done about anything, at any time, anywhere? something other than just parroting and crying, something with pictures, facts, evidence, a debate that they took part in where they actually based it on facts, logic, history, and NOT ON UNCLE HARRY`S vet bring back fantasy fables... accompanied by a kick to the head and girlish giggles! Maybe there are such threads around by these individuals?

And Trommler, those words are also to provoke and encourage. Provoke the apes to get so mad, knowing that it is hard to return from a Logic-Slapdown, so hopefully they fall from the trees, and to encourage others to do some basic research, LOOK and THINK about the items we are collecting, with a fresh mind, an open mind, and forget everything we read or thought about an item, and start again based on what magnified images show us. Or at the very least, include forensic science into complicated debates BEFORE we even think about listening to any altered ego, and stupid vet bring back crap story; before we even consider the word story, and what it could or could not mean to the items being discussed.
 
MWF,

Excellent post on Opaque Vs Translucent enamel :thumbup:

This is good hard evidence no one can argue either way about imo

You know how to explain very important points & dont mess around or mince up your words, which i appreciate :jaw: :biggrin1:


Thanks Mac 66.
 
You know how to explain very important points .
Well i went into much more detail in the book, taking, and breaking, many examples, of both fake as well as genuine opaque red badges to show the differences in (die) construction, materials used etc..
Once the basics are understood, Die construction, Sub-contractors -pertaining to the actual round (or Diamond) planchets, as well as who actually did the enameling - once these are understood, they can be categorized and placed into possible time periods. Once the time periods are correctly attributed - relevant to each maker - relevant to when they received their M1/ number - relevant to what they were making, who was actually making their planchets etc.. it is actually quite easy to understand.

I am not sure how many pages it took to explain this properly, correctly and conclusively, but many. It is just one example of a complicated question that has never been tackled before in-print, except by authors like xxxx who wrote one-liners in the 1980s to the effect of: "All opaque badges are post war fakes" etc.......

Once again, there are opaque and translucent originals, fakes, and also opaque & translucent Fantasy badges! (see below image)

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The enamel is nothing to be scarred of, providing you understand the enamel questions, another subject all on its own that had been covered in-depth in the book. On all the threads i have ever read on forums, pertaining to questions of all kinds on enamel, i never once saw any research being done into the actual enamel!! I only saw boot-kicks supported with lies, swearing and "IN MY OPINION"....So for those interested in answers to these questions, they will soon have them, and for the fruit eaters, well let them continue to bash each other, it is what they do best. Why bother to look for answers, why bother to spend money on research, it is much more fun to kick each others egos over the web, and pretend to know things you dont.

Some folk are so hell-bent on a certain way of thinking, and so set in that way of thinking, that even if Jesus floated down from heaven on a cloud and told them it was not so, they would still not believe it. There can be no substitute for solid research, but at the end of the day, i cannot convince you that you have an orange and not a banana, that is up to the individual pallet. All i can do, is show you the differences between the two.
 

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MWF,

You have been most helpful on the opaque enamel questions that needed clearing up & have helped us guys to understand it all, Thanks :)

Another question may i ask in post 74; you said: who for some reason seem to delight in trying to make others look stupid, by raising the most absurd points - can you give us an example of what you actually mean here?


Regards Mac 66.
 
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Another question may i ask in post 74; you said: who for some reason seem to delight in trying to make others look stupid, by raising the most absurd points - can you give us an example of what you actually mean here?
Regards Mac 66.
Lets examine one such post by Hermann.
The banana-yellow is the original WAF post, the white is mine:

Post 81. from a WAF thread

Hi Scott,
I don't collect those pins, but there are some that look very old, so basically, there are 2 possibilities:
- very late originals
- very early copies


How can all this debating attributing, claiming to know and claiming to have had, all be coming from someone who does not even collect HJ badges? (or small badges) A reference is made to 2 possibilities, but why? There has been no factual debate, no proper questions and no proper answers, just a jump to 2 possibilities? Possibilities can ONLY be weighed up AFTER sufficient research has been carried out, and AFTER serious and sensible debate has taken place.
How can a person, who does not even collect badges, and obviously does not have the first idea about what he is talking about, ignore everything that must be considered first, and jump straight to offering 2 possibilities? Lunacy at its finest! Possibilities may NOT be offered by someone who has done no research, does not even understand what opaque enamel is, who does not even collect the items discussed, and who clearly is way out of his depth with the given questions.
The 2 possibilities offered by this person, show the serious lack of knowledge.
Very late originals.
Why very late? My research has placed the use of opaque red enamel on official NSDAP insignia at 1939… is 1939 very late? Why has this possibility been given as very late? With absolutely no research or anything to accompany it? Why? Because it is just words coming from a confused person with no knowledge, no experience with complicated issues, and from someone who has chosen to just say something without lifting his small finger to do any research. There is a distinct smell of animosity with his posts, and a complete lack of knowledge or common sense.
Very early copies
Why very early copies? A studier of NSDAP insignia would know that enamel fakes only make their debut around the late 1960`s, and opaque red enamel is not found on the very early copies, but rather translucent. Opaque red enamel makes its debut around the early 1970`s in Europe. Once more, a clear indication that this person has no idea about fake small enamel badges, this person has no idea what the first fake enamel badges looked like. And has no idea about enamel at all. Early? Late 1960`s is early? Once more this possibility is the figment of this posters imagination, and has absolutely nothing to do with the actual question, item or anything else. Why is it added as the second possibility? Because it is made by someone who does not understand what he is talking about, that is why.

Most of the senior badge & pin collectors in Europe seem to avoid them, which is a bad sign...

I would be very interested to know exactly who these people are? I have been collecting small badges for longer than most, and know most of the old guys who collect small badges. And none of them share this guy’s twisted view. In fact this is nothing more than a made up claim to add weight to his side of the argument… the same as his previous 2 possibilities! Laughable. What is this stupid comment doing on his post? Is it to mean: All my friends and those I know say its so, so it must be so? Well I have some shocking news for this poster, in my book, I have ripped apart the opinions and the in-print information by senior collectors, and proved them wrong. (some of the TOP names in our hobby) I have done this using RESEARCH, with FACTS and documented evidence. I have not just added what I think could be possibilities in order to support my way of thinking. Sadly though, many think like this person, and have contributed to the disaster that the hobby has to deal with today.

But unlike HJ-knifes[sic!], production of these pins did not stop in 1942!

What does this have to do with opaque enamel? My research places the use of opaque enamel on official small badges around 1939… What does this absurd statement have to do with opaque enamel, or the use of an opaque diamond pin on a 1942 produced knife?

Maybe at the end of the war 1944-45, the HJ pin factory was bombed and the Germans could not make the dots in the HJ badge anymore... Don't see any reason why they would have changed the design: there is not any strategic material reduction involved... unless it can be prooved[sic!] that these full reds are not made of copper...


The HJ pin factory? Which one? In which area? At what time? A clear indication of a complete lack of knowledge about who produced these badges, who enameled them, when they were made, how they were made and why the base material as well as the enamel changed over time. Another irrelevant statement that has been used as another possibility, provoking others to provide info on its basis, as if it were relevant at all. Madness.

The germans could not make the dots?


I assume he is referring to the stippling? Well that cant be seen under the opaque red of course, but in many cases is still there. When a comment as childish and absurd as this is made, it shows the level of knowledge of the poster, and shows that he does not have any idea what he is talking about. Changed the design? Who changed the design? Just because opaque red enamel was used instead of translucent, does not mean the design changed.. what am I reading? What is this blabber?

Unless it can be proved that these full reds are not made of copper?

Solid proof, that this poster does not have the first clue! No HJ diamond is made from copper; they were stamped from messing, tombac and alpaca. (The HJ Ehrenzeichen with oak leaf border in 14 ct. gold) Towards the start of the war they are found in messing plated eisen and in eisen. After that in zinc of varying quality, BUT NEVER IN COPPER! The base material has nothing to do with the enamel, unless we are talking about zinc, which cannot be enameled. Opaque red enamel is found on messing, as well as messing plated eisen, as well as eisen badges!

Best regards,
Herman
PS: By the way, many of these diamond pins -also with the correct, red dotted pattern!


What is the correct dotted pattern? Surely this poster means the stippling on the messing planchet, the stippling that was hand engraved onto the working die, after the master or working hub die had transferred the blank pattern onto it. The stippling will change from maker to maker, simply because it is handarbeit and not a pattern that can be transferred from a master die.

From another post made by this user, it becomes clear that he does not even know what opaque enamel is.

Now it s not only full red, but also "opaque" diamonds which are good in HJ knifes? How about green and blue?

Opaque enamel, IS full red, they are not two different kinds! And as far as green diamonds go, talk to Tom Johnson, he sells them as original!

SAD! to say the least, but very real. Discussions taking place with NO INFO, discussions that center around egos and not around anything of relevance at all. Discussions that are nothing more than a few egos trying to outdo each other. I would suggest to new members to not carry on in the same manner when asking questions or trying to debate, but rather to do some background research first. In this case you would need some basic knowledge about enamel as a material, and how it was sold, applied to badges, available then as well as now. You would need to have some idea about the way in which badges were made, as well as the actual makers that made them, or the sub-contractors that supplied them to many makers at the same time, using the same dies. It will help if you knew when certain makers received their RZM M1/ license, this helps to attribute certain makers details found to EXACT time periods. That way you will have semi-solid basis for good debate, and can include all the RELEVANT possibilities into your argument, WITHOUT the need for sarcasm, spiteful and downright DUMB questions, that sooner or later are going to make you look stupid.

We do not know everything, but if we TRY and learn the important things first, we will at least be on the right road when we try and debate. And once we get a few people who are clued up, discussing, then results are possible. Nothing of value can come from a discussion that is centered around fantasy possibilities and points of view from individuals that have no idea about the actual item or question. The solution is simple, AVOID anyone making posts like this, dont even reply to their stupid demands, their idiotic possibilities and their rantings, it will get you nowhere. Fruitful discussion is not possible with people like this - unless the desired outcome is a banana!
 
And of course, absolutely relevant to questions of this nature -the use of opaque red enamels as well as translucent reds on the same item, in a similar era, by the same makers- must be weighed up by looking at ALL small badges produced not only in Germany, by in the surrounding countries, at the same time. Only this way will we get a full picture of what was being used at that time, and what can be acceptable or not, without the need to invent stupid theories and shove home-made possibilities down the necks of others.

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Two P.N.F badges made around the late 1920`s to early 1930`s in Italy, by the same maker Pagani. One makes use of opaque red, the other translucent red.

Why is the opaque red one fake? because it makes use of non-translucent red enamel? because Hermann says so? Well sorry to say, but both are genuine. There are many more examples like this of French badges, Italian, Eastern European, Austrian, German etc etc all making use of both kinds. THESE are the small details that must be roped into any discussion of this nature before stupid possibilities are offered based on what one individual - with no knowledge - thinks!!!

I will refrain from adding anything about enamel, for example facts like: The shelf life of translucent enamel is not long, and the enamel will loose its transparency over time if not stored correctly etc etc, as all of this is covered in the book.
 

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Jo, Thanks for your.comments, time, research and patience. Well commented and backed up with information and investigation. Thanks to people like you (or Garry or Henrk, etc...) for making people like me to start looking into old documents, books, period publications, etc... Having said that, the other advantage is that my German improves a lot too... thanks once again.

Regards

Antonio
 
It is quiet on that WAF thread. Are they thinking? I hope so
Well hopefully, and for my part this is the actual aim, it may just inspire a few people who actually own, (or collect) HJ badges, to do a detailed analysis of the items, and compare - for example - good original translucent enameled diamonds with opaque enameled diamonds, in detail, and see if there are any similarities, or grave indifferences between badges marked with the same makers numbers/details, yet using different kinds of enamel. That would really be the way to go.

Just getting back to what that one WAF member posted, about "All his senior badge collector friends thinking/knowing that opaque enamel means the item is fake" Its far fetched, but not really that wild a theory. In essence he is including a point into his evaluation of an item that many folk use. No research, but rather hearsay and relying on the opinion of others who have more knowledge than you! The language is actually quite clear, "Senior" badge collectors - people who have obviously been collecting longer than you or i, thats the subliminal message here. Dont worry about trying to prove him, or his friends wrong, they are "Senior" .... just like a "Vet" story, dont even worry with research because we all know that Living Vets brought them home. The DJ knives are a good example too!

But we know that Vets lie, we know that old collectors lie, we know that modern day dealers with the best reputations, lie! - and more importantly, we know that we, human beings, can make mistakes, and be "wrong" about something. No matter how "Senior" we get, we will still be making mistakes until our last day on earth. The big BUT, is how we deal with this, and more importantly how we deal with our mistakes on the whole, with the focus/emphasis being on correcting past mistakes and helping future collectors.

Do we ignore new facts and new research, even when the new research makes us, personally, look silly online because we have been claiming the opposite for so long? Or do we admit that we were wrong for the greater benefit of the community as a whole? Do we progress with new research and welcome it because it helps us all, or do we ignore it - because accepting it would mean that we, or a certain few, loose face online?

Thought of the day:
On the many sub-forums at WAF, as well as the other forums around net-land, the following is always preached, Discuss the item and not the seller! Well, on the mentioned WAF thread on opaque enamel, what are they discussing? the item? I dont see any research at all on the item, all i read are comments from people using "Senior members believe this and that" to support their viewpoint, as well as a few reassuring posts from old time collectors verifying that they believe that solid red enamel is good. It`s a battle of the Titans, with the actual item being completely forgotten! Even the people who are saying that opaque red is Fine on that thread, i.e. people who share my viewpoint, what are they doing other than giving their assurance that they have had 500 of this of that, and they know this and that..... even though they are correct in saying that opaque red is fine, what have they contributed to the thread or to the discussion in order to demonstrate, give proof, back up their view? Nothing, they are simply using their reputation to add weight, nothing more!

For every 10 reputations who say something is fine, 10 more will say it is not, this is just the naked reality of the hobby, it allways comes back to, as that Moderator said on WAF, "You either believe of you dont - now move on" If we are discussing the Shroud of Turin, FINE, none of us can inspect it, none of us are 500 years old, we dont know and never will, but these HJ diamonds, these TR collectibles, we own them, we have them, we owe it to everyone we are talking to about them, to INSPECT them, and not to just write a load of baloney because we think it is what others want to hear, or because "Senior" people think a certain way. No simple research was carried out by anybody on that, or any other thread, about opaque red enamel, the item, was never discussed at all in the correct manner, the material was never discussed, it was the same old same old, a battle between what old and young think, with the actual item in question being ignored altogether!

What Trommeler said on this post, seems to be the way it is, with the actual item taking a back seat, while reputations and egos are preserved, defended and protected - at all costs!
 
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Yes, I'm slightly surprised that there has been no reaction over there from those who have argued against these badges. At the very least I would have expected a little grace through the acknowledgement of diligent and detailed research.
 
.... the very least I would have expected a little grace through the acknowledgement of diligent and detailed research.
Not going to happen. This whole "Looking at specific details under magnification" was already presented to the collectors by a "Senior" person [see, i can also rope in Senior names into my posts, but not to use as proof though:) ] as early as 2006 - at a show speech as well as in a German and American collectors magazine (Military Advisor and MILITARIA) and since then, who has adopted this way of researching, of who has included it into any evaluation? after 9 years, who? Nobody, thats who.

Go back to post 77, and you will have the reason why:
but there is good reason to be afraid of solid, independent, in-depth and conclusive, RESEARCH !
I will stick to my personal conviction, that this hobby is not about the actual item, but rather about the reputations, egos and stories. But, the way in which my few posts are worded (with orangutan connotations) might just be the spark that enrages a few of those posters so much, that they decide to get off their butts and prove me wrong with concrete research.... it may just happen, if it was me, then i surely would go digging deeper for more facts to bring to an argument that would help to support my viewpoint... and not just - do nothing. (unless i knew that all my gibbering was made up rage, and not relevant to the actual items at all) Time will tell i guess.
 
Here is a few close up pix of my hj members pin & hj knife insignia in opaque red enamel,

Note the flaw in the red enamel on the members pin, both insignias are very similar to each other imo.


Mac 66.

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I am a pround member of the duped club ! in fact Member number 1!

Quote from Victorman/Hermann/WAF:
my objective is very simple: protecting the new collectors and by doing so keeping the "full red duped" club as tiny as possible!
Protecting new collectors by talking crap? by spreading Bullsxxt? by trying to force his twisted way of thinking onto others without lifting his finger to do any research? (Dont worry, i have done all the research for you, so in a few months you can come back and apologize to all the people you have insulted, and in keeping with your wanting to help collectors, you can start a new thread and let those new collectoprs know just how wrong you were, and just how sorry you are now for posting BEFORE thinking)
Who is this person? Whatever his aims are, i am sure that the vast majority of badge collectors are laughing at him - in fact rolling around the floor laughing at him!
Opaque red enamel was used before the RZM marking period on official RZM badges, and through it, although it`s usage on HJ and NSDAP membership pins can only be attributed, with 100% certainty, to around 1939, and from then onwards.

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Two N.S.F enameled badges. The left one with Warenzeichen number dating from around 1932, the right one with RZM berechtigungsscheinnummer and RZM logo from around the start of 1934... but whats this?
OH NO.... it`s opaque red enamel...run for your lives i say... both must be fake.. ( I guess i owe two people a refund and must scrap my upcoming book.... )

But what does 100% certainty mean? That WAF poster likes to use it a lot! Is it a screaming post from me? shouting at anyone who will not think my way? insulting anyone who wont say "Yes master" or does it refer to my in-depth study of these exact items? Using history, documented facts and forensic science? i wonder which of those two would be considered a 100% certainty in a court of law? Herman's blabbering or forensic science?
 

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Returning to the topic we touched on regarding the reverse markings - pertaining to them making the badge wiggle or not.. i found this interesting version on WAF, the maker is incorrectly described as M1/138 when it is in fact M1/136. (RZM M1/ license issued in 1939) Anyway, the point is not the license date, or the opaque red enamel, the point(s) is/are the reverse markings, which have all been inset, as well as not only a round indent for a pin plate, but also a long grove either side. What i think this is, or why it was done, was so that it could be used in combo with either a badge attachment, or a knife attachment prongs.

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Clearly this was an issue with at least some HJ badge makers, as we see on a few reverse designs the markings, and in particular the attachment plate groove is raised so much, that it would not be possible to use certain badges on knives. So i guess instead of making two or more different reverse designs, they went with a combo one that could be used for both. This is with certainty produced after 1939, or around 1939, a time when the RZM M1/ system had been in place for many years already, and standardization had taken complete control, so possibly a wise choice from a maker insuring that he did not need many different dies for the same badge.

If attached correctly to a knife, there would surely be nothing to cause this badge to "wiggle" - except of course to hear 74 years later that it cant be real because it aint translucent...doh...:nono:
 

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MWF,

Excellent information & work you have done on the opaque red enamel subject!!, i honestly appreciate all you have done to date,:scot

As for Herman aka Victorman: if there was such a thing as a "Time Machine" & took this guy back to the hj knife factory in Solingen Germany say 1941 where they were fitting the opaque red hj daimonds, he would still not believe them to be genuine by saying something like, i,m hallucinating you guys spiked me man :lol:



Cheers Mac 66.
 
i,m hallucinating you guys spiked me man
Told ya not to drink from the warm bucket of calf slobber... :001_tt2:
There are a few turds bobbing about of late, that seem to take a personal interest in deliberately spreading wrong information, and deliberately attacking people for no reason, using the most absurd claims and rants to achieve their personal goals - whatever those may be - in any case, i would simply flush and not look behind. Nobody can tell you if Jesus is real or not, but as far as opaque red enamel goes, well a minimal amount of research, and you will have your answer.
I wouldn't worry none with that user Victorman at all, people can hide behind on line profiles, he is possibly a 17 year old acne-faced teenager who gets a kick outta trying to rub others the wrong way.
 
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