Let's talk about the 'Deutsches Jungvolk knife' and the 'BDM knife'

Hi thanks for your comments and a very interesting photo.whatever next eh wink wink
govman

he he :) Yes, there are indeed real surprises in this hobby sometimes but as far as these knives are concerned I'm not expecting to see anything that will prove their period existence and their official use by the DJ and BdM. The doubters have a very strong case backed up by a large amount of period evidence and modern analysis. Those who like the knives can really only point to certain names in the hobby who have published books showing these knives.
 
So as to prove my conviction to the discussion I have asked my daughter who runs my website to remove the knife and have no qualms in putting it with the other one I own.Your statement however they will NEVER appear is a bit sweeping maybe you know something we don't to be so assured . You haven't got a she'd have you ? . Also your inference I am trying to take peoples hard earned cash is a little dramatic and has tones of north of the border.I will remain level headed and open minded which is a trait that has stood me in good stead over the years.Rather than firing off the hip.will post a photo soon.
govman



govman,


We people North of the border have good common sense & do not take the likes T.Wittmann at his word or any other dealer for that matter, i have an open mind as well & have been at war over the hj knifes with solid red/opaque diamonds for a few years now so until you believers of these DJ, BDM knifes come up with hard evidence that they are RARE & REAL ect & charge top money for them you will have a fight on your hands from many collectors who think otherwise, this is not GD.com where Mods delete posts to suit themselves & dealers stick together like glue, welcome to the real world, glad to hear you removed that silly knife from your website, :scot
 
Govman, you should describe the knife as exactly what it is: an un-attributed knife to any organisation.

The name of these knives has been promoted by dealers, not collectors.

And you keep this alive by peddling mis-information for money.

There is no collector education here coming from you.

Regards

Russ
 
There's an increasing amount of bickering going on here so I've pruned posts which got away from discussion of these knives.

Govman, if you had read the thread in full before posting I think that we could have avoided some of the stuff that has gone on here. If you have something to add to the debate on these knives I would appreciate it if you could show it as opposed to simply alluding to it.

My questions are .why if there is conclusive evidence either way your forum is having a discussion on the knives.Why is this silly little knife rare .answer because there are not many of them would be my obvious answer.why all throughout this thread are they refered to as bdv bdm and dj jungvolk (took advice and read through)how pray then should I describe this knife other than the way you are all describing it ,also I have always known these having this description.i do not have any strong evidence they are as described as you do not have any strong evidence they are not,so for the mean time I will go on the most common description given. I will still continue to enjoy the one within my collection until maybe someone does find a photo or written confirmation which would be great ,after all I think my chances of that are much more favourable than yours of finding the guy that knocked them up in his shed and distributed them worldwide with the possibility of a major manufacturer being involved and inventing the bdv story.

COGITO ERGO SUM A FOUNDATION FOR ALL KNOWLEDGE.
OR
INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY
lol govman

What's "BDV"?

This forum is having a discussion on these knives in order to clearly lay out the case against them being what you, for example, believe them to be. We can show that these knives are not mentioned in any available orders, regulations, books. No photos would appear to be known that show anyone wearing one of them. They are unknown in the period literature thus far. Their physical appearance is also full of issues ranging from the materials used to quality to the "hidden" RZM mark.

COGITO ERGO SUM A FOUNDATION FOR ALL KNOWLEDGE.
OR
INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY
lol govman

This is lazy thinking and I submit that you have the burden of proof because you clearly believe the knives to be authentic. We on this forum are already showing our proof and as ever, we are waiting for something, anything from the believers. Check all of the books you mentioned earlier in the thread and find any pages where these "DJ" and "BDM" knives are shown. When you find them, have a look at the bottom of those pages and let me know whether there are any footnotes. Does any author have any proof that the knives are what he says they are? I think I can guarantee that none of them will. That's what we're up against here so I think it very unsatisfactory to give buyers and collectors the impression that these knives are authentic, rare and desirable even though you have no proof. Simply pointing at Wittmann and Johnson and saying "they like the knives so they must be okay" doesn't cut it any more. They do not now, nor have they ever, had any proof that these knives are what they say they are.
 
I am open minded and enjoy these knives whatever they are . I see you have removed most of my comments in reply to members trying to lynch me for selling one,giving me no right to reply the two previous posts are a prime example. I was told censorship was not an issue here .Even my reply to a member who did not read that I had removed it from my site was removed.This is in my opinion is not a discussion but a one sided dealer lynch mob.I shall no longer enter into this debate so you will all be able to back slap and sit in wait to be proved right. I must admit this site just seems to be like all the others with big brother on your shoulder.If allowed I will show some of my collection from time to time for those of you that might appreciate it.
govman
 
publish & run.....

...This is in my opinion is not a discussion but a one sided dealer lynch mob....
You are actually correct here. Not the lynching part, thats illegal - although i am sure many are still tempted.
The one-sided part is true, and that should say enough. All the credible information on them points towards a post war produced item, that is in fact still made to this day, and available through eBay or other sites for a few dollars. If there was anything of factual value that could have been added onto this thread - to support them - it would have been done.

There are enough egotistical puff-skulls in this hobby who take delight in making other forum posters look stupid by simply stopping a "debate" about something with a small bit of proof. Until now though, nothing of the sort has happened, not even by the authors who chose to include these in their "reference books".

If there is any item in my book, that people were saying on forums is post war, not real, and/or that i did not support enough with period facts and logical discussion, then by Goerge IV i would see it as my duty; to do the following:

• Explain to the collectors who have paid good money for my book, and who look to me for advice, why i believe "said item" is good/bad/controversial etc.. and why i published it as good when many collectors doubt me. (or are starting forum threads about me and/or my items)

These old "reference" books, and the old way of publish and run, has carried over to the forums. How often do we see someone, who many collectors respect and look up to, post something, then run away and never bother to respond to any question asked/posed in the ensuing debate. That is what any reference book is, that does not have footnotes or anything factual accompanying the image. Post & run, Publish & run.. same thing, and it`s a tactic that carries no merit, serves only to confuse and promote sales of post war items that have had weird Third Reich connections attached to them.

You know, if the heap of stinking meat - stinks, then that probably means that the meat is no good. Although with a few handfuls of spice
...we could convince the crew that it was great, and indeed tasty prime cuts.. :biggrin1:
 
Govman,
You clearly still haven't got it.
This forum has been created for all of us, the collector of "authentic" stuff I may add.
If the origin or authenticity of an item is compromised any serious collector will not go for it untill it has been proven to be authentic.
So stop bithing around, playing the victim, if you are so sure of you beiing right, show us than the proof, and present us a picture, or any other form of documentation where it is clear for all, that these knives are indeed period made and handed out to the youth.
If you can't, than please stop wasting our time with futile discussions wich leads to nothing.
Mike
:belgium
 
I think having these discussions is very important to keep the subject alive and to keep the rouge dealers under pressure. The debate is clearly getting through to the collector community through the debate :canada1
 
I am open minded and enjoy these knives whatever they are . I see you have removed most of my comments in reply to members trying to lynch me for selling one,giving me no right to reply the two previous posts are a prime example. I was told censorship was not an issue here .Even my reply to a member who did not read that I had removed it from my site was removed.This is in my opinion is not a discussion but a one sided dealer lynch mob.I shall no longer enter into this debate so you will all be able to back slap and sit in wait to be proved right. I must admit this site just seems to be like all the others with big brother on your shoulder.If allowed I will show some of my collection from time to time for those of you that might appreciate it.
govman

You are not "open-minded"; you are simply ignoring the available evidence in favour of blind optimism. That's lazy and it's an attitude that led to you offering the knife for sale in the matter-of-fact way that you did. YOU might prefer optimism over evidence but I think that is to do a disservice to your customer in this case. You don't know what that knife is but you're happy to slap that description on it because everyone else is doing it? Unsatisfactory as I said.

As to censorship; you riled people by steaming into the thread without reading it first. You are combative and seem to be interested in only one opinion - your own. I was forced not only to remove some of your posts but also some from long-standing members who reacted to you. You have a right of reply as long as you have an account. Just word it in a manner that doesn't get people's backs up too much eh?
 
evidence

1.
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.



o·pen-mind·ed
adj. Receptive to new and different ideas or the opinions of others.

hear·say:
something heard from another person : something that you have been told
 
I am reposting this to confirm that knives were handed out to a few BDM girls in the last months of the war in europe : The knives were not standard issue , and did not look like an HJ knife .
I recall a story told to me by my Aunt Laura (now diseased) who was a former BDM mid level leader . On her last visit to the USA aprox 7 years ago , she told me what she had experanced during the last 2 months of the war in Berlin . One of the stories told was that when the Russains were aproaching Berlin , a higher level BDM leader had handed out knives to a few members of her troop , She said that the Russains were raping and killing German woman and they could use these as a last resort . My Aunt remembered that this higher level BDM leader had her own pistol . I showed her one of my HJ knives and she said it was not one of those .
 
am certain the story is very true as have heard similar stories, the knives handed out at that stage would certainly have been items of availability nothing special :canada1
 
This is NOT "hearsay" . I am sorry that my Aunt Laura is no longer alive to tell her story. She did describe the knife that she and a few of her troop were given for personal protection as she and other girls in her troop were carring for wounded soldiers and civilians only a few kilometers from the front lines . She said that the knives were civilian pocket knives (the fold out type) .

When you say!-Objection
•-Speculation (and hearsay to boot)
▬Sustained
It is NOT hearsay when One of my Aunts was raped but never told the details about it ....and My Grandmother was raped in front of my (at the time 5 year old) mother by a Russain and tortured with a horsewhip afterwards .
 
Joe, dreadful things did happen, the point is only that they are personal to you, the family and those connected with "what happened" Even when published, they remain only stories, and unfortunately cant be looked at as "evidence"
Not that this is what you were doing, or even how i interpreted it, but for the sake of the thread and not to confuse whats already a long thread.....
I also think that it`s a subject that should not really debated on a thread like this, that is really only talking about a few specific models of knife, when as you say yourself .. fold out pocket knives. So to possibly prevent further confusion, i hear what you are saying, but dont see the connection to the items discussed here.
 
DJ knife just offered tonight, for USD495.-
LINK

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Are they dropping in price? Also, I see that he has put DJ inside quotation marks as we do here on the forum. It's a start :)
 
Offered here is a great original Third Reich...
Yes it`s a start, the next step is to prefix DJ with :censored:
 
Update on posts 116 & 118.
Both items now showing SOLD on Johnson's site. The shame..... :sad:

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