Is this an original Hitler Youth HJ steel helmet?

As long as I know the decals existed back then (and they did according to post #10), I have no problem believing that they were installed on at least ONE M35/40/42 helmet, whether authorized or not. :sad:
 
REF POST 10 it is compelling for sure but where are they? you would think with the hundreds of thousands HJ in service there would be a survivor. Always have an open mind to these things and makes for great debate :canada1
 
Hello,
I am owner of the helmet. I bought the helmet more than 20 years ago during a school trip to Germany in a market of a little village near Munich to a old lady who had a wooden crate with other rusted remains, which apparently had found in his property. Not a helmet bought in a store or at a militaria collector.
The helmet decal is not like you see on those pictures or that reproduction. It has the rounded bottom edge and does not carry the white border. I only saw this decal (rather a picture of it) after many years, on this website: German-Helmets.com and I don't know a copy of it (this does not mean it does not exist). According to that page says, would be a helmet decal Luftwaffe anti-aircraft units, and produced in small numbers, while the other is fire units.
Can it be false? may. But by origin, type of decal and status do not think so.
Hull Rust is old (not like someone came to tell me that he make it in two months ..); I am an engineer of metal structures and I know the issue of rust, and also, the decal is "integrated" into it.
I, and excuse me, I do not understand the argument that "if I have not seen or have not seen a picture of it, does not exist". I think like everything in life, there is ever a first time.
This helmet is not impossible that existed, and if he were not mine, I'd be happy to see one finally. But that's my opinion ...
Please excuse my bad English
 
We alrady know the history of "I bought it to the ... I found it on a roof...", we know it existed decals for HJ, but there is only the proof on a photo published by the magazine "Deutscher Feuerschutz" on M34 helmets. But it is not know if other units had them. No mention to Flakhelfer units; just saw some days ago an original helmet for a flakhelfer owned by a friend mine, it was just a LW helmet with LH decals what had inside it the name and rank LwH of the wartime owner.
I can not say it is or it is not original, just it can't be proof if it is or it is not.
 
I look at it this way....the argument "I've never seen one on a helmet" doesn't hold a lot of sway. Just think about other things people haven't seen. I've never seen a hurricane, a tornado, a monsoon, a tidal wave, or our current President ever tell the truth. Doesn't mean those events never happened. Just that I have never SEEN them. From observations I have made on other militaria forums, it is NOT uncommon for new variations to appear that people have "never seen", but that are 100% legitimate. I pretty much dismiss any descriptions of where things were found or who sold them to who. Granted, the "late war exception" argument can be abused, and has been in the past. However, that doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate argument. Think about it...
#1 The Hitler Youth decals WERE available for purchase during the war.
#2 Hitler Youth wore whatever helmet was available for them to use. Just because they fought in a flak unit, which many did, doesn't mean they HAD to have Luftwaffe helmets with Luftwaffe emblems. Especially since ALL emblems were declared as being unauthorized after a certain period.
#3 The Hitler Youth were a very proud organization that never hesitated to display their emblems whenever possible.

Considering the above 3 FACTS that are already known, it's not an impossible stretch to believe that INDIVIDUAL Hitler Youth applied these decals to their helmets.
 
#1 The Hitler Youth decals WERE available for purchase during the war.
Really? Where? Can you proof that? There is some document or price list where they are listed?

#2 Hitler Youth wore whatever helmet was available for them to use. Just because they fought in a flak unit, which many did, doesn't mean they HAD to have Luftwaffe helmets with Luftwaffe emblems. Especially since ALL emblems were declared as being unauthorized after a certain period.
Well, flak units was part of luftwaffe like they was Luftwaffenhelfer - So Auxiliary to the Luftwaffe - most logical they used helmets coming from LW deposits.
You can see here an example: http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f34/flakhelfer-wearing-luftwaffe-helmet-8486/

#3 The Hitler Youth were a very proud organization that never hesitated to display their emblems whenever possible.

Except the ones who was on flak units, when they could they taken off all their HJ emblems and replace them for Luftwaffe ones, even if that was forbidden.

But yes oddities existed http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f34/odd-helmet-decal-worn-deutsches-jungvolk-member-8655/

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Albrecht said:
"Really? Where? Can you proof that? There is some document or price list where they are listed?"
ALL the decals used on WW2 German helmets were available for purchase, along with many other uniform accoutrements. There were stores in Germany that sold all of that stuff. It's no big secret. Are you new to collecting these items?

"Well, flak units was part of luftwaffe like they was Luftwaffenhelfer - So Auxiliary to the Luftwaffe - most logical they used helmets coming from LW deposits.
You can see here an example: Flakhelfer wearing Luftwaffe helmet"

Yes, and I'm sure early in the war they were fully equipped with all Luftwaffe gear. But in 1944-45 that gear was not as readily available. There are pictures of German paratroops wearing standard M35-42 helmets in combat by 1943. Ever been in a war? You use whatever is available. The TOE of a unit (that's Table of Organization and Equipment, if you are a civilian) goes out the window when you are in combat and re-supply is non-existent. And in 1945 resupply in Germany was iffy at best.
 
There were stores in Germany that sold all of that stuff. It's no big secret. Are you new to collecting these items?
How there was stores what sold this stuff, please show the pricelist of one where you can get the HJ decals.
And yes probably I am too new and blind to see your proofs.

Yes, and I'm sure early in the war they were fully equipped with all Luftwaffe gear. But in 1944-45 that gear was not as readily available. There are pictures of German paratroops wearing standard M35-42 helmets in combat by 1943. Ever been in a war? You use whatever is available. The TOE of a unit (that's Table of Organization and Equipment, if you are a civilian) goes out the window when you are in combat and re-supply is non-existent. And in 1945 resupply in Germany was iffy at best.
Even beign a happy civilian, there is some time what I left the military, your arguments have not so much sense. You afirm they don't had enough supplies, what is quite right, but they could waste their own money on got decals for helmets.

As Garry has on his profile

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof" - Christopher Hitchens (1949-2011)
 
How there was stores what sold this stuff, please show the pricelist of one where you can get the HJ decals.
And yes probably I am too new and blind to see your proofs.


Even beign a happy civilian, there is some time what I left the military, your arguments have not so much sense. You afirm they don't had enough supplies, what is quite right, but they could waste their own money on got decals for helmets.

As Garry has on his profile

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof" - Christopher Hitchens (1949-2011)

I just love it when someone is too lazy to do their legwork and depends on someone else to do it for them. A sign of the times I guess. Anyway, just doing a quick search, I came up with this website:

German-Helmets.com

Please read the last paragraph most closely. In the meantime, I will go to another location that you may find more acceptable, Its called Wehrmacht-Awards.com. There are some pretty knowledgeable folks there. I have no doubt they can answer the question most expertly.

As to your constant demand for proof...please prove to me "that there is air". That should keep you busy while I wait for a reply from the other forum.:lol:
 
Deputy said:
I just love it when someone is too lazy to do their legwork and depends on someone else to do it for them. A sign of the times I guess.

Deputy, you are coming across as a paid-up member of the "Everything is Real and Authentic until proven otherwise" club. This club consists mainly of people who prefer to snipe at and devalue primary sources whilst offering collector and dealer anecdotes and other stories as "proof". They believe in a strange, ethereal late-war period of pixie-land where boys wore BDM skirts because the Third Reich ran out of shorts and where present-day magic attics pump out all manner of strange and wonderful "late-war" TR collectibles.

Facetious, yes but I'm sure that you get my point. Guesswork is no substitute for legwork but despite berating another member for a lack of the latter, I see nothing from you apart from a link in post #23 to a page that is long on words but very, very short on footnotes. So short, in fact, that there are none. This is opinion, not proof. This is not to say that the author could not prove any of his statements but the point is that the reader is left to decide whether anything he has just consumed is actually true. If that page satisfies your thirst for knowledge then you need spend no more of your time on HJ-Research. I certainly don't want you here if your aim is simply to make snide posts like #29.

Yes, there were oddities caused by the war and there were also oddities in the early period and it should be in the interest of any serious collector to find plausible reasons for the existence of those oddities because otherwise, the unscrupulous take control of the vacuum. However, the search for plausible reasons should use first-hand accounts, logic, primary literature, period photographs etc etc and should not simply be the repetition of the much-loved (by some) "late-war" scenario which might as well be a magical swamp shrouded in mist where, long ago, the inhabitants ran out of proper toilet paper and now have to wipe their a**es on the pages of old books.
 
In my opinion you could not just buy a decal in a store. There is no price-list which includes helmets or decals.
I have never seen this mentioned.

The uniforms and equipment for Feuerwehrscharen der HJ were supplied by the department Freiw.Feuerwehr from
a city as mentioned: Uniformen werden durch das Reichsamt für Freiw. Feuerwehren ausgegeben und nur zur Dienstleistung
in der Feuerwehr-HJ zur Verfügung gestellt. Sie bleiben eigentum der Behörde.

This is obvious when one looks at permits (Ausrüstungs-Nachweis and Ablieferungs-Bescheinigung). The helmet
was supplied by the department from a city. The boy had to sign for delivery. Not even the manufacturing or selling (not even
from parts) was allowed, according to the RZM (untersagt)

I do not know who deputy is, but he has to learn a lot (I agree with Gary). Beware for the so-called "experts" at some forums.
Hardly any of them ever states things with old and actual documents. Why not, you will ask? The answer to this question is simple:
they never or hardly ever have seen any of this stuff.......
 
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This pic is for sale on Klaus B's auction firm - can it prove anything about HJ-helmets ???

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Michael :denmark
 

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I think it doesn't prove anything new, we already knew they were used, but there is no evidence of mass production of these decals.
This photo looks pre-war to me!
 
Yes, this subject always starts a lively discussion.

HJ pieces are one of my specific interests when it comes to militaria collecting, and I have been enjoying the hobby for 5 to 6 years now.

If someone were to ask me if I would like to purchase a genuine, authentic HJ helmet, complete with HJ decal, my answer would be "No, thank you"...as quick as pulling my hand from a fire. This is due to the fact that there is (at this point) no evidence that Third Reich Germany officially produced these helmets as part of their official uniforms. And authenticity, in that way, is important to me as a collector.

So, even though a helmet(s) did physically exist somewhere, sometime, by someone...they were not official. So I will pass.

Until I hear/see new evidence, this will be my opinion on the subject.

Just my thoughts.
 

Hello,

The picture on post 34
shows an austian HJ member (see the edelweiss on his collar). That means that the picture was not taken before 1938. The helmet is a WWI pattern and the "decal" looks like the decals sold to put on model airplanes... or it's symply a paint work.

The decals we can found today on HJ helmets exist in 2 different pattern. I own since 30 years a HJ helmet with the first decal (see pictures below). I never saw a period picture with this decal and, so, I don't know today if it's an original.

The second decal pattern is illustrated in a period publication (see pictures below) and so we know that this one existed.

Best regards





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A half year ago, I saw a M34 helmet on catawiki, an auctionsite.
It had full hj decals.

I don't know if they really existed.
 
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