Snare drum, any good?

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Hi fellas, found this snare drum recently, seller says it's HJ. I'm really new to this, thoughts?
This drum is in good condition and is a mid to large size HJ drum. About 13" wide by about 7" tall
13"=33cm
7"= 17.75 cm
Thanks,
Eddie


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We have a few threads on snares and Landsknechtstrommel but these items are always very difficult Eddie. The problem is that they were used before, during and after the Hitler Youth period. I saw a Landskenechtstrommel in DJ colours in use during a report on the local news here about some village festival and that was two weeks ago. Elsewhere on the forum there is a photo of a modern marching band where a drum that looked identical to those carried by the HJ/DJ was clearly visible.

In my opinion criterion number one for those interested in buying one of these is to ensure that they are old enough to have been used by the HJ/DJ and not that they are HJ/DJ. That could possibly be achieved by looking at the maker's logo and perhaps researching how the logo changed over time. Was the manufacturer in business during the TR or before? Stuff like that. Ask the dealer/seller how he knows/has ascertained that this is HJ. I'm guessing that he will not know and that you'll get a load of flannel about it looking exactly 'like the ones the HJ used blah blah'.
 
Hi Garry, thanks for the solid suggestions. I've written to the seller asking for maker's marks, and I'm now awaiting a reply. Do you think $475 is a fair price if I can verify that it is from WW2? I read through other threads and it seems that the size, under 36cm, is correct. I found an identical drum that was once put up on auction that has a period engraving. Man, I just dunno, thanks for replying.

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Hi Eddie,

That one is a very good example of the problem. He says:

"THE BRASS SIDE IS MARKED "KRIEGER U. MITIL (sic)-VERIN, GERA-PFORTEN, AM 1.7.33 GESTIFTET VON DEN FRAUEN". THE YEAR 1933 MAKES THIS A VERY EARLY NAZI YOUTH DRUM"

The engraving says that the drum was paid for by the wives of members of the First World War veterans' asscociation in Gera so the seller's description is pure flannel. It's a downright lie in fact and there is absolutely no reason to believe that this drum was used by the HJ. It might have been but we will never know that for sure of course.

Here are the correct dimensions for a HJ sidedrum:

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Hmm, that's true, the engraving only says that it's "a gift from the women to the soldier and military society, etc" (excuse my poor German). You make a really good point, and thanks for replying. You mentioned company logos previously which was a great suggestion, are there any other characteristics of drums that you've seen and trusted to be HJ that you can mention? Thanks for all the help.
 
I'm pretty sure that I have seen a drum marked with a HJ organisational number which would be the ideal situation (RZM markings may also be encountered) but usually they are not marked in that way. As I say, all that can really be done with these in my opinion is to go at them like a detective and try to establish whether the drum could have been around during 1933-1945 by looking into the history of the manufacturer. Best case is that you find a drum with the logo of a manufacturer who was making them during the period but even then you will never know whether it is 'HJ'. I hope that the other members will give you their thoughts also.
 
Ich stimme dir vollkommen zu. Es ist beinahe unmöglich zu sagen ob ein Trommel von der HJ/DJ benutzt wurde. Die Behauptung vom Verkäufer "Das Jahr 1933 ist dies eine sehr frühen NS-JUGEND DRUM" ist einfach nur lächerlich. Wie will er das denn wissen?!

I totally agree with you. It's virtually impossible to say whether a drum was used by the HJ/DJ. The statement by the seller "the year 1933 this is a very early NS youth drum"is laughable. How can he know that this is true?!
 
Thanks Garry, I appreciate all the info that you've given, and also the honesty that a person might never know that it is a HJ drum or not.
 
$475 for a drum ?? Wow...

Check ebay Europe and pick them up for under $100.
Here is mine, I paid like $ 80 for it. Stamp may be fake, I do not know. I did only discover it when I unpacked the box at home.

Regards,
Chris

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Thanks Chris, I returned that drum and got my money back. I got overly excited when I saw it on a site here in the states because I'd never seen one for sale before. But, I'm bidding on one at the moment that is considerably cheaper, haha. It's funny because I can speak reasonably good German, but I just wasn't searching using the right words.
 
Lefima drum

$475 for a drum ?? Wow...
Try...£700.- :lol:
Nice story though.
This is a very special lot which has come straight from Germany and has been completly untouched. This has to be one of the most iconic Hitler Youth items and yet the most seldom seen.I have been in contact with the Collectors Guild who currently has a similar style drum but however, is wanting just shy of $1000!! The Collector's Guild from the site is very interested in obtaining this piece with the view of selling this rarer 'textbook' red and white HJ version for $1500 fees and postage. I am fully aware that £700 is no meager sum but it is however far below the market value which is what Wartime Wonders is all about!The condition is nice with paint loss as you can see with some slight suface rust on the metal loops. All ropes are in reasonable condition and the drum heads are in fine condition and it makes a tremendous sound but sadly the drum sticks are not with the item. Bottom line is is that it is a very rare item and would make a fine trophy piece for any collection
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I've just been checking out Lefima and they still make these drums. I'm trying to put a date to the type of Lefima logo shown on the drum as that will obviously give us the info required to say whether the drum even dates to the HJ period.
 
Wiki shows a Lefima logo which it says dates to approx 1930. The attachment name is "Lefima_logo_1930_1948":

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Same logo on a selection of snare drums from the 1950s:

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The page goes on to say that a new logo came into being in 1961/2 after Lefima had fled the DDR and that this logo is still in use today ("Das heutige Lefima-Logo entstand"). Logically then, the logo on the drum up for sale can't be earlier than 1961/2. Clearly, the wiki info is not footnoted but it is a strong indication and if we can confirm it through old catalogues etc then this will be all that is needed to sink any notion that drums with this type of logo are from the HJ period.

An example of the later logo on a brand-new bass drum:

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...and on the drum on sale as "HJ":

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EDIT:

I knocked up a quick chronology of the Lefima trademark. This doesn't include the very early Leberecht Fischer plates as they pre-date the NSDAP period:

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Link to 1950s drumkit.
Link to 1965 drumkit.
This allows us, I think, to say that the drum on sale as "HJ" is definitely post-war.
 

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One would think, that this kind of "easy checking up on" should have been done by the seller?
Or at least the description should have a bit of USEFUL info in it, info that pertains to the actual item and not just waffle...
 
It was indeed easy and quite why the seller didn't do it himself is beyond me mate. As I say, the info on the change to the Lefima logo will need to be double-checked but it seems pretty clear-cut so far.

Edit: see last pic in post #14 above.
 
Postscript to post #14 above:

I have written to Lefima to get full confirmation that the version of the company logo shown on the "HJ" drum was indeed introduced in the early 60s. This doesn't mean that I have doubts but it is always useful to get absolute proof where possible.
 
I saw the discussion on WAF, it's still for sale, and still for sale on War Relics Forum, and on his website, although I did message him, I did not get a reply :)

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