HJ and DJ knife wiki pages

Garry

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I have been updating these two pages over the last couple of days but have also added a little info to the others in the second list. If anyone has anything to add or has corrections please let me know. Alternatively, you can make the changes to the pages yourself if you have the necessary permissions (if you can call up the pages you have them).

DJ knife
HJ knife


Any additions to the following pages are also welcome:

BDM knife
1936 Olympic knife
1935 Reichsparteitag knife
 
Same goes for all of the other pages in the HJ-Wiki. The point of the wiki is to have good, reliable pages that can be updated easily whenever new and/or additional information becomes available. This is the absolute advantage it has over books which, although undoubtedly extremely useful, can't just be quickly updated if the author finds something new in his field after the book hits the market. Alternatively, if the author gets something wrong and later realises it, he can't undo that straight away either. Perhaps that's what happened to some of the militaria authors who only later realised that they had put fakes into their books... Oh let's not go there ;)

If you would like to find out how to create or edit a new page go here.
 
I see that the WAF DJ knife thread has been reopened. The same old faces are jumping in and proclaiming that a Solingen loss report is the proof they have been looking for to prove that the little knives have a legitimate and now proven link to the DJ. I haven't seen the document because, of course, they sensibly banned me :) However, I already know from the comments about it that the document says nothing of the sort. We know that Klaas produced the small knives in iron/steel and therefore that these small knives existed albeit without diamonds. But... there is NO proof of a connection to the DJ as the dealers and the odd partisan WAF moderator claim in their respective posts and sales pitches. Once again they crow and applaud each other but it won't wash and I can almost smell the desperation.

Made today by Serge M said:
Speaking of Bowie HJ knives, I recall how many collectors (back in the day), called them fake or 'parts'. It didn't seem to matter how many of us got them from veterans who stated that they acquired them in a factory.
Until finally Lt. Col. T. Johnson posted one in a book, did some start to 'believe'. However, to this day, not everyone believes these to be period.


So, on these small knives, where we have evidence or period paper sacks with their printing DJ designation, where there is now documented factory evidence of 'small' HJ type knives being listed as bombing casualties, and where veteran collectors with hundreds of years combined experience in the hobby, have been acquiring these from veterans for no money, as they were mostly, use as a 'Toss In' to Sweeten the Pot kind of item, it doesn't surprise me that they are considered by some collectors today as Non-period.

HJ diamond attached to scabbard or not, there is growing evidence that these small DJ style knives were period produced. In any case, that is where the evidence is weighing in on the scale for me at this point.

The moderator Serge M is embarrassing himself once again. He clearly still does not understand the issues with these knives and still, for example, believes that Wittman's pairing of a "DJ" knife with a standard paper bag for the HJ/DJ knife is proof that the DJ wore these small knives. He appears to believe that if it's in a book it must be real even though he undoubtedly knows about the fakes that have been seen in books over the years. He loves a good vet bring-back, motel buy story and just look at that last sentence... Growing evidence? It was shown in black and white on that very thread (and oif course here on the HJ forum) that Klaas produced a small knife similar to those sold today as DJ, BDM, Olympic etc. However, the Klaas knife did NOT have a diamond in the grip or on the scabbard AND it was made from iron/steel. Serge is, once again, being partisan and coming down on the side of the forum sponsors even though he admits that he knows next to zilch about what is being discussed. He is not interested in proof from the doubter side of the discussion but as soon as someone finds something for the dealers he is straight in there.

Fred is keeping things nicely in check by asking sensible questions and pointing out things that should be obvious to anyone truly interested in history so I think that in a couple of days the thread will go back to sleep with no admissions having been made.
 
I have seen it Garry, but nowhere the abbreviation DJ is used in the letter, which is
mentioned.

The two differences between the length for the HJ-blade simply will have been caused
by the shortages of material, during this stage of the war. No more then that. Maybe
it was indeed planned to make the blade somewhat shorter, but before they could
make a final decision, it was announced that daggers whatsoever were no longer
allowed to be manufactured at all. An announcement mentions 260 daggers and
swords in total. The problem is they have never or hardly ever have seen documentation,
regulations or what ever, but above all most of them cannot read German and when
it is related to the Gothic script, they are handicapped.

I am in constant contact with Fred about this and other matters. Myself I will not ever
post again on WAF. Visiting yes, posting not and when there is something of my
interest I send a simple PM to the person who posted and asked a question!! When
this is interesting me. Otherwise I let them muddle along, those wiseguys!

Here is a copy of the letter. I did not ask permission, as for what reason I should.
Everybody "nicks" material without asking (also from my books)!!

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Thanks for posting it Wim :thumb: Yes, as you say, absolutely nothing in there that would help anyone to prove that the DJ (or the DJ and HJ as proposed by Wittmann and Weinand) wore the small knife. Also, nothing about diamonds on scabbards or diamonds in small grip plates. Quite incredible how they clutch at straws and ignore real evidence....

Fred is doing a great job. He has more patience with these people in his left foot than I have in total.
 
They will never understand that these knives are not regulation period made items. Bottom line. The NSDAP loved rules, regulations, photographing and taxing everything. Where is any of this evidence? Simple. It does not exist. Not a single regulation or a single photo in the thousands upon thousands of photos taken of DJ members in the period.

How is it that we have photographic evidence of such obscure items like homemade LBA shoulder straps, homemade Sigrunes, etc. and not a SINGLE photo of one of these little knives in the period? Simple. They just were not used so there are no photos, NONE.
 
If it was about "understanding", then one would think, that a serious collector/researcher/author, would at least be able to pronounce the German words they have in print for decades, correctly.
Or know what they mean - or want to know what they mean. That is clearly not the case though.

"...is that TeNo real Bob?" ... "Yes, it`s got the serial number."
 
I've updated the DJ knife page with that document now. Assuming that it is authentic, it shows only that a quantity of small blades was present at the factory and that the company describes them as "HJ". This is of no help to those who have sold the small knives we see today as "DJ" and "BDM" for a start and because the document does not give dimensions for these small blades we cannot ascertain if they are the same size as those we see today on the little knives. These simple observations were inexplicably ignored by Weinand and Iqbal.


Given that we already know that small knives similar in pattern to the larger HJ knife were being produced and sold by Klaas in the 1930s this document reveals nothing new. The discussion is not about whether small knives existed but rather whether they were produced specifically for the Hitler Youth (HJ, DJ, BDM/JM). This is what dealers and dealer/authors have been telling the collecting public for decades and they still have no proof for any of it.
 
Period adverts show that all kinds of knives were made, big, small etc.. what do these knuckle heads think.. that after the HJ/DJ Fahrtenmesser came to be, every other knife was forbidden? ha ha ha ha... :pound: Priceless!
 
I always have a big laugh when I read DJ-daggers and especially a dagger for the BDM.
With this it is obvious they (these nitwits) never have seen the official periodicals, and
neither the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM.
If such ever existed, I think that without any doubt, this was mentioned (at least once)!

I still am waiting someone can post a photograph of the dagger, bayonet-type in wear
or where the diamond is not posititoned in the normal position for the grip (also actually
worn)!
 
I still am waiting someone can post a photograph of the dagger, bayonet-type in wear
or where the diamond is not posititoned in the normal position for the grip (also actually
worn)!

Check the HJ knife page Wim. There's a photo of a HJ boy there wearing a so-called "trench knife" likely to be by Anton Wingen with the diamond in a different place:


You can jump to that specific wiki page section here
 
Sorry, I do not see such photo at all. Had a better look now and yes!
The photo shows the diamond indeed lower then normal, but the
knife worn is not a HJ-Fahrtenmesser. Not an official one anyway.

I have not ever seen advertisements for this one with diamond, but
without.

The typical head for the dagger as worn by the boy and who is
claiming this to be a Wingen?
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Would it be possible the dad from the lad was a true "handy boy",
who knew to manage to get a diamond in that position. He never
will have had the thought that 80 years later some "experts" were
discussing why the diamond was there?

I may remember the "experts" that a lot was done after the war, to
make TR things and able to sell and trade for food, cigarettes and
whatever. I have seen this happen in a cellar at Solingen in about
1955/1956, when I was 13-14 years old. The granddad of people
I knew was doing this. It is a pity I cannot remember the
manufacturing markings, but I have seen boxes, loaded with this stuff.

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The head from Wingen in spring 1933:


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The typical head as by Pack and others:


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The typical head as for a childs bayonet with the about
length for a Fahrtenmesser from a price-list from October 1933 from Max Müller.
The price was just Rm 1.10
 

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Yes, definitely not an official knife Wim. That this might be a Wingen knife came from another forum - GDC I think (Hermann V). How fantastic that would have been if you had been able to take notes back then :) A lot could be cleared up straight away these days with knowledge like that.
 
Believe me Garry I did not care for a minute about TR in those days.
Not only that, but closets with uniforms and whatever I have seen
during my visits at family and friends, between 1950 and 1960!
I could have taken from the cellar as many of such daggers as I wished
to have them. I however was scared the customs would confiscate
what I had, when returning at Dutch borders. They were not forgotten
the war then. They still hated the "huns"........Even my name was enough
to been bullied.
 
Damasco, the guy who posted the insurance claim list on WAF (see post #4 for a copy) and got the DJ knife fanboys in a tizz (for no reason as was already discussed) was asked the following.

Mac 66 on WAF said:
damasco, do you have any period paperwork on these Aluminium hilted small knifes as to when they were manufactured ?, if not what is your honest thoughts as to when they were manufactured ? , should they be called a DJ knife ??, if we can find answers to these questions the case "might" be closed

I think he posted that after seeing how the Weinands and Iqbals of this world had proclaimed this insurance report as a revelation. Anyway, damasco's answer (bearing in mind that he has admitted to not having an opinion about these knives or being particularly knowledgeable about them) was....?

Well, it turned out to be rather enigmatic:
damasco on WAF said:
As far as answers to the last post the archives were scattered to the wind and it has been very expensive to find them.. As I have time I look through them and find clues and great info.. It is all ongoing..

What he is effectively saying is that once he has read through every page of his archives he is sure that he will find the answers to Mac 66's questions because he feels that his archives are sufficient. Are they? Well, who knows but he clearly doesn't know exactly what his archives contain and he certainly doesn't have an index page because if he knew the former or, at the very least, had the latter he would be able to cut straight to the chase - which he doesn't.

I'm not having a go at this guy because good research is always welcome but why muddy the waters with enigmatic and unsubstantiated half-claims which he may or may not return to at some undefined point in the future?

Although I don't believe that it exists, I would be among the first to acknowledge the emergence of an RJF authorisation if someone were able to find it but until then, dealers and sellers have no business claiming that these little knives are DJ, BDM or HJ-DJ.
 
The door MUST be left ajar... think of the cash that Wittmann, Johnson, Inkball, Weinlands and the rest would have to pay back to the collectors they fleeced… so, one or more of them will do their best to pepper the forums with this kind of bullcrap every now and then. They tried it already on Ratisbons auctions last year with the fake piece of paper supposedly of a maker producing small DJ knives for export - in 1944!
I wonder if they have "Brian the blade" (Wittmann`s Brian, the drunk with a dead chicken under his workbench) making up these fake stories... maybe the blade business has gone sour for them, i mean, we saw retired navy somethingorother Thomas Johnson sell an HJ knife with GREEN diamond a while back... how low can you go? That would have been the scrapings from Brian`s workbench drawer... All they have left is crap, and because collectors are needling them for answers, a fake piece of paper mentioning this or that occasionally floats onto a forum, a whisper of a supposed photo that supposedly shows something or other...
 
Yep, totally agree with that Jo.




If you came here after looking at the DJ knife photo here:

It's a fake. I added the knife in Photoshop but imagine if a photo like this were commissioned by someone to defend these knives...
 
This was brought to my attention by another collector...
The WAF moderator on the daggers section/forum... just happens to be, Wittmann`s "Table Helper" :swiss
start the video at the 2:00 mark. And try not to laugh.

(by the way, in a week or two, Thomas Wittmann will feature in the next "Exposing the scam" video i make.)

The WAF Moderator Serge Masche should be barred from any discussion about these knives. If the WAF want him as a Moderator, then he should be barred from all discussions on the dagger forum that have a Wittmann connection, and only be there as a Moderator.
But, we are talking about the WAF now, the corrupt Militaria forum where shilling takes precedence over facts, the Militaria Safe Space where Snowflakes can feel at home without nasty reminders of documented history, or people pointing out the obvious.

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Wittmann Antique Militaria Show Journal - OVMS Show of Shows 2012 - YouTube
 

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