Arbeiter-Jugend badge (20 sunrays - wrong N)

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Hi,

got this 20 sunrays badge today, the N in jugend is misspelled.

Is this one ok , fake or rare?

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I thought I'd come across one here with the same wrong N, but I can't find it right away..

I must say in hand if you look at the details it looks original and old
 
Even Hiscoll sold this ugly fake badge. Unthinkable that the RZM would have ever produced a badge with a wrong "N". Such fakes often come from Eastern Europe. Even the back side with "GES. Gesch." ( gesetzlich geschützt ) is very ugly .
 
Well, if fake, they had the right base metal for the planchet. You clearly see the reddish color of the Tombak alloy on the worn spots just like you can see them on the originals. Wrong letters and ugly 'Ges. Gesch." can be found on original early Party Badges as well.

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Well, if fake, they had the right base metal for the planchet. You clearly see the reddish color of the Tombak alloy on the worn spots just like you can see them on the originals. Wrong letters and ugly 'Ges. Gesch." can be found on original early Party Badges as well.

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What you say is correct Wim. But such an obvious error would have been noticed immediately in the Third Reich. The workers or producers, mostly people who still had experienced World War I had been brought up differently than today to bring the most accurate and best craftsmanship. Spelling mistakes were severely punished alreay at elementary school. Each badge was subjected to an inspection as a blank and samples had to be created for the strict RZM inspectors before they were issued ... and the RZM, as we know, has taken care of every little detail with great meticulousness. None of them should have spotted such an extremely conspicuous error? The employees at the time were much too careful for that. Today that's possible in Germany - back then it was hardly possible. After 1945, unfinished products from the time of the 3rd Reich were often found, as were the old tools and presses that made it possible to sell reproductions to souvenir-hungry GI`s. Were these badges produced after 1945? That would explain why the material is genuine. SS Totenkopf and other items were also reproduced after 1945 on the old machines and tools.​
 
What I wonder then, if you want to make a reproduction of something , then you want it to be copied exactly as possible, or it is immediately apparent that it is a copy.
Why would you place such a clearly wrong N in something that you want to copy?
Is "Ges. Gesch." not pre RZM?
 
Yes, you would want to do a reproduction of best quality. Those who use a wrong "N" come from Russia - a German or other Western European would never twist the N. So I suspect it could be a reproduction from Russia. The "legally protected" is a designation that expresses the state recognition of a product. It is still used in Germany today. For this, too, numerous samples have to be submitted to various offices - and all these meticulous German officials are said to have overlooked such a blatant error that catches the eye. Impossible even today, but completely out of the question in the Third Reich. In order for an official party badge to be issued, many institutions passed the test. Many, many people were busy with it, checking everything with German thoroughness. A twisted "N" in a state production would not have existed.
 
This is how an original should look like - please compare the exact font and no twisted "N".

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Hi Chlodwig,

I took my two pieces for a better look and I certainly agree they both look much better than the one that started the thread. Especially the sun disc looks horrible plus the crude lettering. But again: there exist very ugly Party Badges from the early period too. I find this a difficult one to judge.

Regards, Wim
 
I post this thread a while back but never got a response :

What do you think about this one ?
The form of the sunshine rays are totally different and the E from arbeiter too , the back looks good ins.D.arb.Jungend.jpg ins.D.arb.Jungend.2.jpg
 
Hi Chlodwig,

I took my two pieces for a better look and I certainly agree they both look much better than the one that started the thread. Especially the sun disc looks horrible plus the crude lettering. But again: there exist very ugly Party Badges from the early period too. I find this a difficult one to judge.

Regards, Wim
Hi Wim , thanks for displaying your HJ badge. All I can say is that I have doubts that a badge with a wrong lettering would have had the chance to be produced in the Third Reich. The problem today is that fakes are getting better and better using often the correct material. What collector can say that he never has purchased a fake. I did so and I think nearly all others too. I would pass on badges or other items with such obvious mistakes. Imagine someone would write Robert Palmer like " Robert Plamer ". Everybody who is able to read English would detect the fake within a second. :frusty:
 
I post this thread a while back but never got a response :

What do you think about this one ?
The form of the sunshine rays are totally different and the E from arbeiter too , the back looks good ins.D.arb.Jungend.jpg ins.D.arb.Jungend.2.jpg
Thanks for posting this badge. You are right, the sun rays are totaly different and several letters do not show the regular size and please note the differnet spaces between the letters . I guess this badge was fabricated by amateurs who wanted to make some money quickly . The reverse looks better.
 
Hi,

got this 20 sunrays badge today, the N in jugend is misspelled.

Is this one ok , fake or rare?

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Please Schuere compare the spaces between the letters . On the fake they are completely wrong while on the original I´ve posted for you they are top !
 
What you say is correct Wim. But such an obvious error would have been noticed immediately in the Third Reich. The workers or producers, mostly people who still had experienced World War I had been brought up differently than today to bring the most accurate and best craftsmanship. Spelling mistakes were severely punished alreay at elementary school. Each badge was subjected to an inspection as a blank and samples had to be created for the strict RZM inspectors before they were issued ... and the RZM, as we know, has taken care of every little detail with great meticulousness. None of them should have spotted such an extremely conspicuous error? The employees at the time were much too careful for that. Today that's possible in Germany - back then it was hardly possible. After 1945, unfinished products from the time of the 3rd Reich were often found, as were the old tools and presses that made it possible to sell reproductions to souvenir-hungry GI`s. Were these badges produced after 1945? That would explain why the material is genuine. SS Totenkopf and other items were also reproduced after 1945 on the old machines and tools.​
Hi Chlodwig

I don't want to be rude and sound like a dick...but it's going to be hard not to. Please don't take my comments personal.

Most of the comments in your previous posts are complely wrong so I don't really know where to begin. But here we go...

Like Wim already pointed out the badge in question is a pre RZM manufactured badge, which means it's manufactured prior to late 1933 when the RZM license was introduced. If you think that the introduction of the RZM license meant that every single RZM licencensed badge was flawless and exactly alike you are very wrong. I suggest that you take a look at the (so far) known original transitional RZM marked badges.

I think there were 6 known transitional makers of the Arbeiter Jugend badge and not one of their dies were alike! Different numbers of sunrays, different type of patterns on the "peebling", high/low horisonts, some show almost a full swaz others only show like a half, most with a hypen between "Arbeiter" and "Jugend" (another wrong and stupid myth) but not any hypen on the transitional Hoffstätter, different types of lettering (and space between the letters) and the different types of RZM logos and transtional maker marking (but that's another story).

The introduction of the RZM license was not about guidelines, inspections of the manufactures and quality of the products. It was about making money to the Party! After the introduction of the RZM license, the Party controlled the making of not only official badges but buckles, daggers, uniforms and pretty much everything else you can think of as well. Every single RZM licensed maker had to pay a fee to the Party to obtain their RZM license and of course they had to pay "provisions" of every item they sold... Some RZM licensed makers (like RZM 39 Robert Beck) did loose their RZM license but that was probably due to lack of paying their RZM license and not because of the quality of their badges.

As a German, You should know the meaning of "Gesetzlich Gesschutzt". That has nothing to do with any type of goverment quality inspection either? It's just a trademark for a patent equivalent to the English "Copyright" we see now a days on almost every single consumer product.

When you inspect any TR badge (or any other TR item for that matter) and try to determine whether it's an original or a reproduction, you really need to understand how the original item was manufactured. When it comes to enamelled TR badges, we know that they were die-struck. That's a very important fact! That means a die/dies were made for the production of any type of badge. These dies were made by humans...and humans are known to make mistakes for a number of reasons. They did back then and they still do this very day. You can find a lot of badges with die-faults...Take a look at some of the attached images. They are called "Prägefehler" or just oddities and are highly collectable among experienced collectors.

That brings me to my last and most imortant comment regarding "the spaces between the letters". That's just so wrong... If that's your critiria for an original badge you'll end up with a collection of modern reproductions. Equal space between the letters and exact same size and type of lettering are the most obvious signs of a reproduction!!! You will never find an original die-struck badge with these characteristics for a simple reason...The master-die was engraved in metal by a human. Some better than others but nonetheless all humans.

There are a lot of details to look for when you examine a badge and some details are not visible for the human eye... So that's why more and more collectors (and some dealers) have started to use microscopic examination (inspired by the pioneer Jo Rivett). When you use a microscope it's possible to see whether a badge is cnc-milled, cast from a die or an original die-struck badge (if you know what to look for).

Well... That's just my 2 cents on the badge in question:geek: I hope I don't seem to harsh but I really had to comment on some of that wrong information in the previous posts. Some collectors might believe that nonsence and avoid nice original badges and end up with"perfect" cnc-milled reproductions instead.

Cheers

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Hi,

got this 20 sunrays badge today, the N in jugend is misspelled.

Is this one ok , fake or rare?

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Hi schuere
As you probably already figured out it's a really nice original badge. An oddity with a crude design for sure but nevertheless an original badge. I've seen a few of them in the past years so it's not a super rare badge.
I will be happy to take it of your hands if you still have any doubts;)
Cheers
 
Hello Hannibal74
thank you
for this exchange, the forum is also made for that.
Do you have an opinion on the "12" post badge?
THANK YOU
 
Hi schuere
As you probably already figured out it's a really nice original badge. An oddity with a crude design for sure but nevertheless an original badge. I've seen a few of them in the past years so it's not a super rare badge.
I will be happy to take it of your hands if you still have any doubts;)
Cheers

hi Hannibal74,

thanks in advance for your explanation.
You typed down some things that had already crossed my mind.
Somehow I think if this is a reproduction, why don't we find it in large numbers (like reproductions)
I can also imagine that wrongly beaten / cast badges have never been thrown away in the garbage in the past and have never been used,
but they remained in the factory / office and were still scattered after the war..

Now it is certainly not the most beautiful deutsche arbeiter jugend badge in my collection but rather a frankenstein..
I was on the point of returning it to the seller but I thought and still think he's ok because he feels/ looks period in hand.

So I plan to keep this frankenstein because it's my only one with 20 sunbeams for now.

I will also do my best to take nicer / better pictures of the badge with a decent photo camera
 
Hello Hannibal , thanks for a detailed report that is giving us more information. Usually people answer with "I don´t like it " or " this badge is bad " but
they do not tell us what makes up their doubts. As bertl59 said, the forum here is for discussion and all opinions and comments are welcome. Who of us hasn´t payed many Dollars for fakes ? Unfortunately the market is full of them . I am always ready to accept someone´s opinion even if it is contrarily to mine. And I let myself be convinced when an opinion or a advice is explained well. So go on feeding us with photos and details - I´m sure that all collectors will benefit from it.
 
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