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Hey guys....as per requested, here's my HJ Leader's buckle. No belt to go with it...it's my only leader's example. It's made of tombak and though worn, you can still make out the maker marks.

There are a lot of repros out there - most having the M4/116. I've also heard that ALL HJ leaders with these markings are a repro cast...not 100% sure on that one.

Mine is a C.T.D. (Christian Theodor Dicke) and was one maker who is known to have had the contract for these. For those of you who know David North, he's a political buckle collector. He only considers three makers for this buckle - but also states that there is a chance that the M4/116 is legit. Just odd that these 116s started showing up about 10-12 years ago.
Me? I'm not sure - but the material and construction of this example - along with the M4/22 markings makes me quite comfortable with it.

Here's what David had to say:
"As far as originals are concerned, I have seen examples by:-
M4/22 Christian Theodor Dicke, Lüdenscheid
M4/46 Wilhelm Schröder und Cie., Lüdenscheid
M4/119 Eugen Schmiedhäusler, Pforzheim
There are probably more manufacturers than the above trio in relation to the HJ Leaders buckle.

In relation to the fakes and ignoring for the moment the M4/116.
Dicke and Schröder are definitely faked and possibly (to my knowledge unconfirmed), the Schmiedhäusler.
The 119 is a super buckle and anecdotally, it has been suggested that the fakers chose 116 as at a casual glance, this number could register as 119 !!


Anyhoot - thought I'd share his thoughts as he's a well known and respected buckle collector.......That said - here are some pics!
Cheers!

Rob

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Yeah, the 116s are problematic as there are some genuine examples are out there in amongst the fakes. The 119s are all bad to my knowledge? Are there genuine 119s out there? How are the fakers managing with the 22s? I read that they got better with them and it's hard to tell the difference between genuine and fake.
 
Years ago this buckle was faked in an eastern country (Hungary).
They started selling them and good collectors discovered they were having minor mistakes.
The fakers did listen well and had made new dies by a professional. These buckles were
perfect and one cannot see any difference between the original and the reproduction.
Fakes are getting better every day and the skills are getting better even more and with
perfect scanned items one gets lost.

When I started collecting in the earliest 1970's, there were no 119's and 116's for sale ever!
And having one perfect leaders buckle at hand, with no scratches at all, it is easy to turn
them into a golden version. Overhoff and Schumacher gave me the proof!
 
Many thanks for your insights Wilhelm. Much appreciated!
 
A remark to what is written.
In 2000 and 2001 I published an extensive article about HJ buckles in the US-magazin "Military Advisor"
(winter 2000/2001 and spring 2001).
I started my research in about 1998. So over twenty years now. I then contacted many of the well-respected
buckle collectors, I knew and had contact with.

At that moment the leaders buckle was only known to have been made by Dicke. Bob Evans then showed
in 1999 one from Schmiedhäusler. For over 30 years one thought just Dicke made them.
No buckles were known to exist in collections from Wilhelm Schröder or any other concern. So 116 nobody
had ever seen one. Remind I do research about buckles since the earliest 1970's and had a good contact
with some employees from Dicke.
For me it always has been a question if 116: Camill Bergmann & Co from Gablonz ever made them. Their
RZM permission was not ever published in the Mitteilungsblatt der RZM (117 was with the date July 11, 1942
or 118 Werner Redo August 22, 1942). Schmiedhäusler did get his contract October 24, 1942.

It is a pity I cannot remember anymore what manufacturer's number was in the bucles from Hungary. I did
not make a photograph as I was not interested in buckles anymore, when I saw one, Nor I had a camera with me!
It must have been in about 2010 when I visited a good friend in the south of Germany. He told me the story of
those guye, he knew personally and he so did know facts!

Maybe this gives you thoughts. Schröder does not mention them in price-lists, I am aware about!
 
Here an old topic about leaders buckles
Hitler Youth high leader gold buckle

Thanks bertl59, I did forget about the attached thread. I re-read it
and I still am convinced many are fake or gilded after the war, to get
more money. When a buckle is a perfect item, it is as easy as hell!

Most of the guys answering with this and the other thread have never
done any research by themselves. Hardly any of them has ever visited
the old manufacturers, who can tell you a lot about procedures. It
does not make any sense to further discuss some matters. People like
stories and rather prefer twaddle instead of listening!!
 
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