Another question may i ask in post 74; you said: who for some reason seem to delight in trying to make others look stupid, by raising the most absurd points - can you give us an example of what you actually mean here?
Regards Mac 66.
Lets examine one such post by Hermann.
The banana-yellow is the original WAF post, the white is mine:
Post 81. from a WAF thread
Hi Scott,
I don't collect those pins, but there are some that look very old, so basically, there are 2 possibilities:
- very late originals
- very early copies
How can all this debating attributing, claiming to know and claiming to have had, all be coming from someone who does not even collect HJ badges? (or small badges) A reference is made to 2 possibilities, but why? There has been
no factual debate,
no proper questions and
no proper answers, just a jump to 2 possibilities? Possibilities can ONLY be weighed up AFTER sufficient research has been carried out, and AFTER serious and sensible debate has taken place.
How can a person, who does not even collect badges, and obviously does not have the first idea about what he is talking about,
ignore everything that must be considered first, and jump straight to offering 2 possibilities? Lunacy at its finest! Possibilities may NOT be offered by someone who has done
no research, does not even understand what opaque enamel is, who does not even collect the items discussed, and who clearly is way out of his depth with the given questions.
The 2 possibilities offered by this person, show the serious lack of knowledge.
Very late originals.
Why very late? My research has placed the use of opaque red enamel on official NSDAP insignia at 1939… is 1939 very late? Why has this possibility been given as very late? With absolutely no research or anything to accompany it? Why? Because it is just words coming from a confused person with
no knowledge,
no experience with complicated issues, and from someone who has chosen to just say something without lifting his small finger to do any research. There is a distinct smell of animosity with his posts,
and a complete lack of knowledge or common sense.
Very early copies
Why very early copies? A studier of NSDAP insignia would know that enamel fakes only make their debut around the late 1960`s, and opaque red enamel is not found on the very early copies, but rather translucent. Opaque red enamel makes its debut around the early 1970`s in Europe. Once more, a clear indication that this person has no idea about fake small enamel badges, this person has no idea what the first fake enamel badges looked like. And has no idea about enamel at all. Early?
Late 1960`s is early? Once more this possibility is the figment of this posters imagination, and has absolutely nothing to do with the actual question, item or anything else. Why is it added as the second possibility? Because it is made by someone who does not understand what he is talking about, that is why.
Most of the senior badge & pin collectors in Europe seem to avoid them, which is a bad sign...
I would be very interested to know exactly who these people are? I have been collecting small badges for longer than most, and know most of the old guys who collect small badges. And none of them share this guy’s twisted view. In fact this is nothing more than a made up claim to add weight to his side of the argument… the same as his previous
2 possibilities! Laughable. What is this stupid comment doing on his post? Is it to mean:
All my friends and those I know say its so, so it must be so? Well I have some shocking news for this poster, in my
book, I have ripped apart the opinions and the in-print information by senior collectors, and proved them wrong. (some of the TOP names in our hobby) I have done this using RESEARCH, with FACTS and documented evidence. I have not just added what I think could be possibilities in order to support my way of thinking. Sadly though, many think like this person, and have contributed to the disaster that the hobby has to deal with today.
But unlike HJ-knifes[sic!], production of these pins did not stop in 1942!
What does this have to do with opaque enamel? My research places the use of opaque enamel on official small badges around 1939… What does this absurd statement have to do with opaque enamel, or the use of an opaque diamond pin on a 1942 produced knife?
Maybe at the end of the war 1944-45, the HJ pin factory was bombed and the Germans could not make the dots in the HJ badge anymore... Don't see any reason why they would have changed the design: there is not any strategic material reduction involved... unless it can be prooved[sic!] that these full reds are not made of copper...
The HJ pin factory? Which one? In which area? At what time? A clear indication of a complete lack of knowledge about who produced these badges, who enameled them, when they were made, how they were made and why the base material as well as the enamel changed over time. Another irrelevant statement that has been used as another possibility, provoking others to provide info on its basis, as if it were relevant at all. Madness.
The germans could not make the dots?
I assume he is referring to the stippling? Well that cant be seen under the opaque red of course, but in many cases is still there. When a comment as childish and absurd as this is made, it shows the level of knowledge of the poster, and shows that he does not have any idea what he is talking about.
Changed the design? Who changed the design? Just because opaque red enamel was used instead of translucent, does not mean the design changed.. what am I reading? What is this blabber?
Unless it can be proved that these full reds are not made of copper?
Solid proof, that this poster does not have the first clue! No HJ diamond is made from copper; they were stamped from messing, tombac and alpaca. (The
HJ Ehrenzeichen with oak leaf border in 14 ct. gold) Towards the start of the war they are found in messing plated eisen and in eisen. After that in zinc of varying quality, BUT NEVER IN COPPER! The base material has nothing to do with the enamel, unless we are talking about zinc, which cannot be enameled. Opaque red enamel is found on messing, as well as messing plated eisen, as well as eisen badges!
Best regards,
Herman
PS: By the way, many of these diamond pins -also with the correct, red dotted pattern!
What is the correct dotted pattern? Surely this poster means the stippling on the messing planchet, the stippling that was hand engraved onto the working die, after the master or working hub die had transferred the blank pattern onto it. The stippling will change from maker to maker, simply because it is handarbeit and not a pattern that can be transferred from a master die.
From another post made by this user, it becomes clear that he does not even know what opaque enamel is.
Now it s not only full red, but also "opaque" diamonds which are good in HJ knifes? How about green and blue?
Opaque enamel, IS full red, they are not two different kinds! And as far as green diamonds go, talk to Tom Johnson, he sells them as original!
SAD! to say the least, but very real. Discussions taking place with NO INFO, discussions that center around egos and not around anything of relevance at all. Discussions that are nothing more than a few egos trying to outdo each other. I would suggest to new members to not carry on in the same manner when asking questions or trying to debate, but rather to do some background research first. In this case you would need some basic knowledge about enamel as a material, and how it was sold, applied to badges, available then as well as now. You would need to have some idea about the way in which badges were made, as well as the actual makers that made them, or the sub-contractors that supplied them to many makers at the same time, using the same dies. It will help if you knew when certain makers received their RZM M1/ license, this helps to attribute certain makers details found to EXACT time periods. That way you will have semi-solid basis for good debate, and can include all the RELEVANT possibilities into your argument, WITHOUT the need for sarcasm, spiteful and downright DUMB questions, that sooner or later are going to make you look stupid.
We do not know everything, but if we TRY and learn the important things first, we will at least be on the right road when we try and debate. And once we get a few people who are clued up, discussing, then results are possible. Nothing of value can come from a discussion that is centered around fantasy possibilities and points of view from individuals that have no idea about the actual item or question. The solution is simple, AVOID anyone making posts like this, dont even reply to their stupid demands, their idiotic possibilities and their rantings, it will get you nowhere. Fruitful discussion is not possible with people like this - unless the desired outcome is a banana!