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  1. #11

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    Congratulations Paul, I never saw anything like that for Oberbann 4.

    Thanks Darin too for providing us with more info and learn about it.

    It is really difficult to concentrate only in Tinnies when I see this type of things.

    Regards

    Antonio

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gefolgschaft View Post
    I've seen a similar Sigrune in a collection that has the same piping, with a blue background and yellow rune. I would personally doubt SS affiliation and believe SA, just my opinion.
    Hi Gefolgschaft,
    I think that the 'Sigrune' with the twisted cord matchs to the shoulder straps before 1933 or a short time later.
    The 'Länder' had much more autonomy and could display proudly their regional colors.
    It is always the case at the present time in Germany.
    I think that the cording comes from Prussia but I am not certain about it.
    Best regards
    Eric

  3. #13
    I agree Eric, black and white piping on the shoulder straps indicates Gruppe/Gau Ostland, in Ostprussen. Odd that the colors of the rune would indicate HJ Gruppe/Gau Sud (Munchen) Sud or Oberbayen, Niederbayen, Shwaben, or Oberfalz.

    This sigrune of mine has matching piping and colors to indicate Gruppe/Gau Nord Hannover Ost Sigrune (Yellow rune on black field).

    I lean toward an early Oberbann 4 Sigrune used in Gruppe/Gau Ostland, during the transitional period of the introduction of the six known Oberbann colors but may be wrong. Whatever locale it comes from it is a nice one, I would be very pleased to have it in my collection. Well done Paul.
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    Last edited by Gefolgschaft; 23rd February 2010 at 02:05 PM.

  4. #14
    Here's my take on these patches just to add to the pool of info.

    There are three periods which I think affect the configuration of these pre-Oberbann DJ rune patches:

    27th of March 1931 to 1st of May 1931
    1st of May 1931 to May 1932
    May 1932 to July 1933


    The first period starts with the incorporation of the Deutsches Jungvolk into the Hitler Youth and ends with Hitler's decision to place the Hitler Youth under SA control.

    The second period is the Hitler Youth under SA control.

    The third period sees the Hitler Youth becoming a seperate organisation away from SA control and culminates in the major reorganisation of the structure.

    I haven't seen any evidence that the Jungvolk wore rune patch insignia prior to becoming part of the Hitler Youth on 27/1/31 so these patches are more likely to be from after this date. The first period covers only 36 days anyway and as I'm unaware of any regulation stating that there was DJ shirt insignia from the beginning in March 1931 I'm left with the more likely scenario in period two with SA colours being used. From May 1931 new 'HJ-Gruppen' were formed to incorporate HJ formations into the SA and it seems logical to me that HJ and DJ units within a particular HJ-Gruppe would wear the same colours as their respective parent SA formations and that's how I see these patches.

    The period covering the incorporation of the DJ into the HJ up to the major reorganisation and regulations on uniforms and insignia in 1933 was full of change including a change of leader from Gruber to von Renteln and ultimately of course to von Schirach. Hartmann Lauterbacher the then Gauführer of Braunschweig was charged with a major reorganisation of the HJ structure in the easter of 1932 and the new terms 'Gebiet', 'Bann' and 'Unterbann' were introduced during the period too so the whole thing was fluid which I think goes a long way to explain why it is so difficult to nail this one by relying on regulations.

  5. #15
    WELL as you know I am always pleased to start a good discussion great info and thoughts

    PAUL

  6. #16
    There may well be an OSAF directive on this actually Paul. If you know any SA collectors it might be worth asking whether they have any documentation/regulations which mention the HJ/DJ insignia. I don't have anything like that myself unfortunately.

  7. #17
    WILL do, I know a few collectors.

    thanks PAUL


    and CANADA just won another GOLD CANADA UBER ALLES go CANADA


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