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  1. #1

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    DJ Fähnlein 3/477 flag and an early DJ Fähnlein Wimpel (pennant)

    Hi mates,

    this week I've received 2 new flags for my collection. Actually I can't make better pics of the complete flags, maybe sometime later.

    Regards,
    Sven.

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  2. #2

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    I like the item on the second and on the third picture very much. Looks like an early item to me. I have never noticed one with such different "S" runes, and have never seen a red blitz above a white S rune. What might have been the meaning? Maybe radio (Funk)? Could you show a close-up of one of the two clips please? Thank you for sharing this interesting item.
    Christian


  3. #3

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    More pics.
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  4. #4
    The early Fähnlein pennant with the superimposed red flash is wierd isn't it. Just going on what we can see it could be the central flash from the old Pfadfinder symbol applied over the DJ Sigrune. The design for one side (the 'left' side - like yours) was left up to the Fähnlein itself and actually if this is a Pfadfinder slash it oddly enough makes sense when you think about how the Jungvolk viewed itself and where it came from.

    The Jungvolk was always different in nature when compared to the more 'militaristic' HJ and it retained a 'Bündische' feel for many years after 1933 so viewed in that light this early Wimpel does makes sense for me.
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    ... and actually if this is a Pfadfinder ...
    Nope, I'd say this is not Pfadfinder related because of the red Blitz / slash / "S".
    The cubscouts (Wölflinge) of the Deutsche Pfadfinderbund used the Siegrune in white on black for about 10 years but never in red. Bündische groups within the Jungvolk are not easy to detect. And almost all were gone after 1935.

    The Pins are from before 1933. The beltbuckle was done in the 1950s or 1960s.

    Christian
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  6. #6

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    Hi Garry,

    many thanks for your reply and your view. What do you mean here with "is wierd":
    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    The early Fähnlein pennant with the superimposed red flash is wierd isn't it.
    Regards,
    Sven.

  7. #7

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    It is a rare and never before seen pennant. I have never seen anything fixed across (superimposed) a 'S' rune on a Wimpel before. The item itself looks absolutely period made and the clips are perfect and the sewing is well done and look similar to all Wimpel I have. So it is a good one. Just the red Blitz is 'komisch'. Whatever this red sign was standing for. Christian

  8. #8
    Sven's Wimpel and our interpretation of its appearance are one matter Christian (I'm not stating anything by the way, I'm offering a possible explanation for its appearance and I'm also fully aware that the DPD flash was white and not red) but I must disagree with you on the matter of the Jungvolk and its bündische roots/influences. It retained a Bündische feel way past 1935. Bündische leaders had already 'infiltrated' the Jungvolk and brought their ideas and methods with them when the Jungvolk was incorporated into the Hitler Youth in 1931 so it is irrelevant that the Bündische groups had been disbanded by 1935. The situation within the Jungvolk is evidenced by the many and continued attempts to bring the Jungvolk into line (some of which I mentioned in another thread).

    As far as the flash is concerned a simple explanation could be that a white flash on a white Sigrune would have looked a mess.. If this is indeed a DPD flash of course and that's something we don't know but the similarity is strong I'm sure you will agree . The combination of the DPD/Jungvolk organisational symbols is very odd but the flash is so similar to that of the DPD that it has to be considered - again, in my opinion.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hohenlohe View Post
    Hi Garry,

    many thanks for your reply and your view. What do you mean here with 'is wierd'


    Regards,
    Sven.
    If it was a Jungvolk Fähnlein that stitched that flash on top of the Sigrune then we must assume that they had a good reason for doing that. The Jungvolk would not have put that symbol over the Sigrune unless it had a deeper meaning (in my opinion). Ever seen an unofficial HJ flag or Wimpel with something stitched/applied on top of the swastika? That's what I'm getting at - the historical difference in attitude between Jungvolk and HJ. I'm also getting at the fact that the flash is identical to the DPD flash apart from the colour. I think it is worth mentioning that although none of us truly know why the Wimpel looks like that. This is a discussion platform at the end of the day

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    ... on the matter of the Jungvolk and its bündische roots/influences. It retained a Bündische feel way past 1935. Bündische leaders had already 'infiltrated' the Jungvolk and brought their ideas and methods with them when the Jungvolk was incorporated into the Hitler Youth in 1931 so it is irrelevant that the Bündische groups had been disbanded by 1935. The situation within the Jungvolk is evidenced by the many and continued attempts to bring the Jungvolk into line (some of which I mentioned in another thread).
    You are right, the feeling of being bündisch or at least different from the HJ still was strong after 1935 in many groups. Although several bündische leaders were replaced and had to leave the Jungvolk the influence was still there. What I ment is that from 1936 on you would have hardly ever recogniced a bündisch influenced DJ group by different details on their uniform, by flags or pennants, or the kind of tents used. You might still have heard their old songs or even Russian or other European folk songs if they sat around a campfire, but that is nothing we can see on photos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry View Post
    As far as the flash is concerned a simple explanation could be that a white flash on a white Sigrune would have looked a mess.. If this is indeed a DPD flash of course and that's something we don't know but the similarity is strong I'm sure you will agree . The combination of the DPD/Jungvolk organisational symbols is very odd but the flash is so similar to that of the DPD that it has to be considered - again, in my opinion.
    And again you are right, white flash on white Siegrune would have looked a mess.
    And since black white and red where the nations colours red would have been the next colour to wear.
    OK, DPB/Jungvolk has to be considered, but I am still not convinced. (I still like the Wimpel very much.)
    Has anyone ever seen anything superimposing a DJ Siegrune?
    Christian
    Last edited by christianlohmann; 13th June 2011 at 12:10 PM.

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