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  1. #1

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    early HJ Flag

    I've this for a couple of decades or so. In the interim, I've seen a couple of similar ones. Most recently, probabaly 5 years ago at SOS, I saw one with heavy red and white cord piping around the corner patch.

    Does anyone have documentation about this type of flag or photos? Any info would be appreciated.

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  2. #2

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    A wonderfull flag! I like it very much!

  3. #3
    Very nice early HJ Schar flag Paul.

    Schar 2/Gefolgschaft 4
    Unterbann I
    Bann B17 Ludwigshafen (HJ-Gebiet 13 Hessen-Nassau)

    The size of these is shown as:

    Width: 1.50 metres
    Height: 1.00m

    The colour of the corner patch is something I've been trying to link to the Oberbann colours for ages now. Yours is black and Bann B17 was indeed part of Oberbann 5 so that works. In a 1933 pamphlet 'Die Uniformen der HJ' there is another flag shown where the colour of the corner patch also matches the Oberbann which that unit would have been part of but I have yet to find a period regulation or source which explicitly links the flag corner patch colour with the Oberbann colour. One day maybe :)

    Anyway, very nice flag and thanks for showing it.

  4. #4

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    Thanks for the info. Any idea how early can this be? I believe the other flag I saw also had a black corner patch. However, as mentioned, it had heavy red and white cord piping around the patch.

    Could it be that all the early flag used black or is it more likely that they used the Oberbann color?

  5. #5
    The Schar was introduced in April 1932 and the Bann in August the same year but at that time the Banne were not numbered and would not be until July/August 1933. In the case of Bann B17 the earliest reference I have is Jan 1934 so your flag (in that configuration) is very likely to be no older than that. I say in that configuration because of course the flag may have had a different function prior to Jan 1934 and the formation of Bann B17.

    I don't know when the Scharfahne was discontinued unfortunately but certainly by 1936 it was no longer an official HJ formational flag. I would put the period of active use of your flag as a Scharfahne at between Jan 1934 and sometime in 1935. Sorry I can't be more accurate with the second date but I don't have access to the regulation.

    The Oberbann thing is only a theory of mine. The little evidence I have seen suggests strongly that the colour of the corner patch was linked to the Oberbann colour but without either a regulation or more pictorial evidence I can't prove it. The 1933 pamphlet 'Die Uniformen der HJ' has a colour plate showing a Schar flag and the corner patch on that one is blue which would correspond to Oberbann 4. I checked the Bann number shown on the flag and the Bann was indeed part of Oberbann 4 so that's when the idea that corner patch colours matched the Oberbann colour started to form. Yours also corresponds to that theory as your Bann was a part of Oberbann 5 which had the colour black. That's as far as I've got so far though. I'd love to find the regulation which governed the Schar, Gefolgschaft etc flags after July 1933 so if anyone can help please let me know!

  6. #6

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    That's more info than I would have expected. Thanks.

    Here's another question: how were these HJ flags consecrated? I'm more interested in the SA and their Sturmfahnen would be consecrated by touching them to the SA Deutschland Erwache standard that had been consecrated at the Reichsparteitage with the Blood Flag.

    I know there was some sort of comparable HJ ritual. I have had tinnies for HJ Fahnenweihe events. However, I'm curious how far down the flag chain this process was taken.

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