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  1. #61

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    Scholz was a well-experienced researcher and author. His book is filled with footnotes.
    He did not quote from Atwood at all that's for sure or others, as he would have noted this.
    Most of his material and information is from documents, issued before the end of the war
    and he got through persons from the former DDR, who did research there or from well-respected
    West-German archives and researchers. He often quotes the Jahresberichte from Feldafing, the
    Schumacher-collection and periodicals etc.

    Often I am also very, very suspicious, but with Scholz I can't say I found much which is
    not correct. For me there still is a few % doubt, but for 90-95% I do believe in what
    Scholz notes and has written about. As said, I will see what is said in the Jahresberichte
    that I have. But time is my spoilsport as I have to make preparations for a small exhibition
    and I need to make many plates with lots of explanations on behalf of Japanese kimono, sake
    cups and bottles and Asian chopsticks.
    Last edited by wilhelm saris; 9th May 2013 at 02:26 PM.

  2. #62
    Thanks Wim, and thanks for taking the time to look and read about the school.

  3. #63
    well here we are at almost 8 pages and the plot thickens JANJAN there is still some hope for you and please remember cool heads have persevered here and I find it most interesting that the blade may have existed , but in what format . JO makes a very compelling argument and with any luck WILLIAM holds the key from his vast re search library and I for one do not mind being proven wrong .

  4. #64

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    The existance of a bayonet can't be longer denied. I promised to read my material and
    when I found the Goerlitz note from 1941 in the Scholz-book it was easier to have a look.

    In the school-year notes from 1940/1941 information is given about Wehrsport
    on page 58. In a message from Dr.Pinnow (Studienrat and responsible for Wehrsport
    in the institution) he says literally in his article:
    Der Feldafinger Jungmann im obersten Sturm trägt mit Stolz sein Seitengewehr.

    He does not mention from what class the bayonet was in use and no other information was given,
    but the "oberste Sturm" was the 8th class, as far as I know.
    Pinnow was in 1942 ranked as an NSDAP Obergemeinschaftsleiter.


    Admin Edit: Wim has established beyond doubt that a bayonet existed but the reader wishing to quote this as evidence for the period existence of motto bayonets must remember that Wim's source does not mention the motto.
    Last edited by wilhelm saris; 9th May 2013 at 06:34 PM.

  5. #65

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    Some additional information, which I found in what was called "Tagebuch":
    there were four Sturm-size units. The 4th Sturm were members from the classes
    6a and 6b, 7 and 8.
    Class 8 had 30 students; class 7 had 31 students; 6b had 30 students and class
    6a had also 30 students. This gives a total of just over 120 students.

    After mid-war Sturm 4 hardly did exist as many of the boys were serving in the
    Armed Forces. This were the classes 8, 8b, 7a, 7b (the last two partly as
    Luftwaffenhelfer); the classes 6a and 6b were serving as Luftwaffenhelfer since
    February 1943.
    Last edited by wilhelm saris; 9th May 2013 at 09:34 PM.

  6. #66
    Wim, that is exactly what this forum is about, and Paul you are right, not about you or me or anyone being wrong, or any bruised egos, i have also been wrong many times in the past, and will always be too.
    It must still surely be possible to find out more, as we have dealers who "know" that they were "given"/worn one from the 6. klasse - or so they say (HH auction), as well as author(s) writing in the early 70s who even know about the slogan.

    I cant see how it would be easy for people to know all this 40 years ago, when research was surely harder than it is now, yet no solid info can be found today about it. (the slogan!) So these people had to have something that they base this on. Meaning that there must be a period mention of it. (or at least a period connection to the school and the slogan) If you read some of the threads about this bayo on the dagger forum, it is supposedly found by various makers as well, all with the same, (and imo still very odd and crudely etched) slogan.
    Just because there are plenty of these floating about that are all accepted as genuine, (actually on the dagger forum it was said that this particular one was a fake) still doesn't automatically make them genuine.

    I would have placed money on it that 14 year old kids were not "given" a bayo with a slogan like Ehre, Kraft, Freiheit. That`s just me though, and the logical side speaking. But the book that Wim mentioned a few posts back, definitely describes the slogan, so it must be possible to trace back how this was known then! I know you are busy Wim, so once again thanks for taking the time

  7. #67

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    I`ll thank you all for help I ditn`t expect so mutch response on the topic when I started it
    I always was convinced the bayo was Original and never tought it was a fantasy item
    Metalwarenfabriek was the one who made me a little suspicious and a little angry on my self
    Why didnt I think in the way he dit when I bought te bayo I tought i`m stupid.
    But I`m glad a little prove is found by Mr. Saris
    Two producers are known Eickhorn and Henckels

    thanks to you all
    Jan

  8. #68

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    good to see people cooled down an working together here, some very interesting points and info being put down! thanks to Wilhelm for taking the time to check the books!

  9. #69
    Jan-jan, the "fear" part on my side is down to the past few years, and the amount of fantasy items, with fantasy descriptions as well as fantasy versions of history, that certain people have been coming up with. Many of these knives, pocket knives, hunting knives, DJ knives etc.. have been discussed here, and all seem to be well accepted as genuine when they cant really be. So firstly, the slogan does not really make sense to me, the "proof" that the dagger forum as well as the German MMF forum are using is nothing more than hot air, and if it is true that there ever was a "document" from Eickhorn showing an order for 500, it seems to have been "lost". But, the way in which it is generally accepted that these are legit because "Period proof is known" is just wrong, as it has never been shown to anyone or covered in any collectors book. Not forgetting the 2 names linked with this supposed "proof". (If you search around this forum you will see a few discussions about fantasy stuff with certain names mentioned).

    What has now been shown by Wim, is that there was a bayonet worn, so it is a great building block for further research, which will hopefully benefit many to come, and clear up what until now was only a few quotes from certain people over the years with no substance. When period evidence is shown, we must accept it, even if we feel that we are still right, or that the "reputation" took a blow. I have no problem with this, as i dont have a reputation Anything factual found,. and shared, will benefit everyone.

  10. #70
    Anyone wishing to quote this thread should not forget that where it has cleared up the matter of whether these knives were worn at NSD-Oberschule/Reichsschule Feldafing, it has not found evidence that they were marked with the motto. Hopefully we will establish that at some point just as successfully as we did with the bayonet itself.

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