Curious piping on a Sommermütze

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Hello,

I am wondering if the piping of a darker red is not the karmesinrot piping for the Gebiet or RJF-Stäbe ?

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In your opinion, what looks like the RJF piping described on this document?

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Thank you both. It would be great to have an answer by Wim (or another person:)
 
The HJ-Lagermütze (from 19.6.1936 "HJ-Sommermütze") was introduced on the 10th of February 1936 and initially there was only one cord colour: Hochrot. Karmesinrot cord was introduced for HJ members employed on Gebiet/RJF staff on 29.1.1937.

An order dated the 30th of July 1937 shows that DJ members on the Jungbann and Gebiet staff wore the HJ-Sommermütze with Karmesinrot cord if their sleeve patch (DJ rune) was also in that colour. However, a correction to that order was issued on the 8th of October 1937 because the initial order had not given any guidance on the introduction of Karmesinrot sleeve patches for DJ members on the Jungbann staff. The upshot was that the DJ sleeve patch in Karmesinrot and the Sommermütze with Karmesinrot cord was only to be worn by those DJ members employed on the Gebiet and RJF staff.

Orders extant in 1943 show that the Sommermütze for HJ/DJ members and leaders up to and including Bannführer/Gebietsführer had a Hochrot cord and that "all others" wore the cap with Karmesinrot.
 
The HJ-Lagermütze (from 19.6.1936 "HJ-Sommermütze") was introduced on the 10th of February 1936 and initially there was only one cord colour: Hochrot.

I haven't found the order introducing Karmesinrot cord for HJ members yet but by the 30th of July 1937 Karmesinrot cords had definitely been introduced. This is noted in an order from that date showing that DJ members on the Jungbann and Gebiet staff wore the HJ-Sommermütze with Karmesinrot cord if their sleeve patch (DJ rune) was also in that colour. However, a correction to that order was issued on the 8th of October 1937 because the initial order had not given any guidance on the introduction of Karmesinrot sleeve patches for DJ members on the Jungbann staff. The upshot was that the DJ sleeve patch in Karmesinrot and the HJ Sommermütze with Karmesinrot cord was only to be worn by those DJ members employed on the Gebiet and RJF staff. The same conditions must have applied to HJ members (less the rune patch of course).

The orders extant in 1943 show that the Sommermütze for HJ/DJ members and leaders up to and including Bannführer/Gebietsführer had a Hochrot cord and that "all others" wore the cap with Karmesinrot. I'll keep looking and if I find anything more I'll add it here.

Great research sir. Very informative.
I would have assumed that the color was just a difference in manufacturers.
 
A friend of mine make sure that the piping of this cap is Karmesinrot. What do you think?
I put a photo of a Motor-HJ cap to compare (rosa).

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Other photos of the supposed "carmine" overseas cap.

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Other photos of the supposed "carmine" overseas cap.

The third photo shown today clearly differentiates the Karmesinrot piping.
We clearly see with this photo that the pink color is much darker as the HJ Motor.
 
Thank you both. I think we need to be careful but that there was indeed a chance that this is not a Motor-HJ overseas cap. Pity that there is not a RJF tagging or something like that inside.
 
To appreciate the different colors, from the bottom :

- hochrot/allgemeine HJ
- karmesinrot/Gebietstäbe
- karmesinrot/RJF-Stab
- rosa/Motor-HJ
- faded hochrot/allgemeine HJ

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Thank you lauri, that was very helpful, an eyeopener I would say.
So the RJF and Gebietstäbe thought Karmesinrot was some kind of pink.
Wow.
Nowadays idea of Karmesinrot or Carmine is different.:confused1:
 
In fact there are several shades of carmine. Regarding the illustrated cap, I'm not 100% confident. I would prefer to have it in hand for a definitive opinion.
 
As Lauri says: there are many shades for carmine, but pink and red as well.
Old color charts from the Amann concern included over 1,000 colors (I was told
by a former employee the chart even ran into the numbers of about 1,400);
these days such chart includes only about 300. Here a survey of the todays
colors is shown. Pick your choice!! In the old days the four straps had many,
many more colors. From one factory I have seen their shades of pink: from
almost whitish with a slight pinkish or purple glance up through nearly "faded"
red. I cannot remember if it were 15 or 20. All were classed as pink!

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And so were the shades of yellow, green, blue, brown etc.
I remember having seen about 25 shades of black!
 

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This is what I showed in my handbook, page 284: pink, carmine and red.
Note and take into account that during the printing-process a slight color
difference is caused!

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As far as I know the crimson for the HJ is a shade between the color 867 and 869 I showed
in post 17. The exact color 868 is not in the chart anymore!

The real color (620) pink is close to 622 and the real color red (1337) is close to 1336. The
exact colors are no longer listed in the charts!
 
Thank you Wim. I much appreciate your work and the assistance you provide to collectors.
 
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