A pair of HJ Ausweis Führerausweis to the same boy

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Joshlee23

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Good evening all,
Hope everyone is doing okay. I recently picked these ausweis up and wanted to share them here. These are the only pics i have at the moment as they haven't been delivered yet. I really like the front cover on the DJ ausweis with the early style font. Bann 263, but what does Stamm Schill mean?
Anymore info is appreciated
Thank you
Josh

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Hi Josh,

The holder of the ID cards is called Walter Goldbeck, born on 26.2.1922 in Ibbenbüren, living in Tecklenburg (near Münster/Westfalen/Westphalia).
In the early days of the HJ, when there were still comparatively few units, they often named themselves after tribes or people who had played an important role in German history, right down to the Schar.
In your case, this is Ferdinand von Schill, a fighter against Napoleon, after whom streets are still named in almost every major city.

The naming of Jungbann and Bann Teutoburg is similar: on the one hand, the name refers to the landscape which the Bann was situatuated in, but on the other hand, of course, it also refers to the battle between the Germanic tribes and the Romans in 9 AD, the location of which was long assumed to be in the Teutoburg Forest - called Hermannsschlacht (i.e. Arminius) oder Clades Variana, as the Romans used to say.

Garry, if you need the names:
Ausweis/ID card: Stammführer Walter Böcker
Führerausweis/Leader ID: Oberstammführer Stegemann (?). When Josh has received the ID cards, I would like to see a better photo of the signatures to check this.
 
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Jack said:
Hi Josh,

The holder of the ID cards is called Walter Goldbeck, born on 26.2.1922 in Ibbenbüren, living in Tecklenburg (near Münster/Westfalen/Westphalia).
In the early days of the HJ, when there were still comparatively few units, they often named themselves after tribes or people who had played an important role in German history, right down to the Schar.
In your case, this is Ferdinand von Schill, a fighter against Napoleon, after whom streets are still named in almost every major city.

The naming of Jungbann and Bann Teutoburg is similar: on the one hand, the name refers to the landscape which the Bann was situatuated in, but on the other hand, of course, it also refers to the battle between the Germanic tribes and the Romans in 9 AD, the location of which was long assumed to be in the Teutoburg Forest - called Hermannsschlacht (i.e. Arminius) oder Clades Variana, as the Romans used to say.

Garry, if you need the names:
Ausweis/ID card: Stammführer Walter Böcker
Führerausweis/Leader ID: Oberstammführer Stegemann (?). When Josh has received the ID cards, I would like to see a better photo of the signatures to check this.
Click to expand...
Hello Jack, firstly thank you so much for your absolute wealth of knowledge. This is really appreciated, love being able to learn something new everyday, so thank you for that.
When they arrive I will get them scanned :)
 
Thanks Josh. It's always a pleasure to be able to help. After all, it's fun for me to decipher these things.
BTW: Do you still have your Landjahr booklet?
 
Jack said:
Thanks Josh. It's always a pleasure to be able to help. After all, it's fun for me to decipher these things.
BTW: Do you still have your Landjahr booklet?
Click to expand...
I don't unfortunately, I do still have the Christmas photo next to it. If i remember right, the staples were not attached to the pages and was all loose. How come? Was a while ago lol

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Yes, there was a reference to similar threads, so I came across it.
I looked up where the camp must have been: in Behle near Schneidemühl (now Polish: Pila).
But then that is of no importance to you now. I'm in a deciphering mood right now lol.
By the way, I think the Ausweis got wet once - hence the rust and discolouration.
 
Jack said:
Garry, if you need the names:
Führerausweis/Leader ID: Oberstammführer Stegemann (?). When Josh has received the ID cards, I would like to see a better photo of the signatures to check this.
Click to expand...

Hegemann :thumb: He was promoted Oberstammführer in Nov of that year so this must be one of his first signatures in the new rank.


Joshlee23 said:
...what does Stamm Schill mean?
Click to expand...


The DJ Stamm (from May 1938 onwards: Jungstamm) was an organisational level comprising a number of DJ Fähnlein so Stamm I would normally consist of Fähnlein 1 to 5, Stamm II Fähnlein 6 to 10 and so on. Taking an average of 150 boys per Fähnlein, the Stamm represented around 750 personnel.

On the naming of units, in March 1935 the useage of honour names and unit names was regulated (the order was extant in 1943) and this shows us how the naming of units was governed:

Acceptable unit names/honour names:

1. The Bann (and equivalent) can be named after a HJ martyr subject to approval by the RJF. The honour name must be visible on the Bann (and equivalent for other formations) flag, unit stamps, vehicle pennants etc
2. The Gefolgschaft (and equivalent) can have honour names as follows:
a. of a deceased male or female member of the unit who died whilst carrying out his/her duties.
b. of a deceased member of a local NSDAP formation
c. of statesmen and important military figures from the past
d. of germanic tribes and all other names used by the DJ up to now*.

These were the only Hitler Youth formations permitted to have an honour name after March 1935.

The unit name stamped onto the boy's ID card is also interesting because the above regulation banned names for the DJ Stämme. It isn't explained in the regulation why this happened but it was expressly forbidden meaning that the "Schill" stamp will not have been in use for long.

*the nature of the DJ was more "bündisch" than the HJ and for many years the DJ retained its special character.
 
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Ah, thanks for the clarification, Garry. Hegemann was the second option, but I would have thought it a little less likely (there is something like a dash, isn't there?).
Yes, it is striking that many Bündische leaders who then had to move with their groups to the DJ initially remained leaders there. The DJ didn't have that many leadership staff. However, they were watched suspiciously and then they were tried to be forced out.
 
Garry said:
The DJ Stamm (from May 1938 onwards: Jungstamm) was an organisational level comprising a number of DJ Fähnlein so Stamm I would normally consist of Fähnlein 1 to 5, Stamm II Fähnlein 6 to 10 and so on. Taking an average of 150 boys per Fähnlein, the Stamm represented around 750 personnel.
Click to expand...
Wonderful info, thank you. Attached are some clearer photos for you both.

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Garry said:
Hegemann :thumb: He was promoted Oberstammführer in Nov of that year so this must be one of his first signatures in the new rank.





The DJ Stamm (from May 1938 onwards: Jungstamm) was an organisational level comprising a number of DJ Fähnlein so Stamm I would normally consist of Fähnlein 1 to 5, Stamm II Fähnlein 6 to 10 and so on. Taking an average of 150 boys per Fähnlein, the Stamm represented around 750 personnel.

On the naming of units, in March 1935 the useage of honour names and unit names was regulated (the order was extant in 1943) and this shows us how the naming of units was governed:

Acceptable unit names/honour names:

1. The Bann (and equivalent) can be named after a HJ martyr subject to approval by the RJF. The honour name must be visible on the Bann (and equivalent for other formations) flag, unit stamps, vehicle pennants etc
2. The Gefolgschaft (and equivalent) can have honour names as follows:
a. of a deceased male or female member of the unit who died whilst carrying out his/her duties.
b. of a deceased member of a local NSDAP formation
c. of statesmen and important military figures from the past
d. of germanic tribes and all other names used by the DJ up to now*.

These were the only Hitler Youth formations permitted to have an honour name after March 1935.

The unit name stamped onto the boy's ID card is also interesting because the above regulation banned names for the DJ Stämme. It isn't explained in the regulation why this happened but it was expressly forbidden meaning that the "Schill" stamp will not have been in use for long.

*the nature of the DJ was more "bündisch" than the HJ and for many years the DJ retained its special character.
Click to expand...
Just fantastic. So much from just a couple passes, thank you. Just out of interest, what the most interesting honour names you've seen for a bann?
And is there any chance there was a cufftitle for the DJ regarding honour names?
 
Cufftitles with honour names existed (and at least one DJ sleeve patch "Norkus" - can be found here) and were worn but they were never officially authorised by the Reichsjugendführung. This is evidenced by an order from 1935 stating that there was no plan to introduce them and that units who had already done so were to stop using them.

Below are the Bann-level units that were granted honour names (that I know of). In 1935 the RJF clamped down on honour names and stated that they were to be used sparingly. At that time all honour names previously granted to units (these included Gefolgschaften and Fähnlein) were subject to approval after reapplications had been submitted.

"Josef Neumeier" (Bann L)
"Walter Wagnitz" (Bann 6)
"Hans Mallon" (Bann 42)
"Erich Niejahr" (Bann 53)
"Otto Blöcker" (Bann 76)
"Peter Frieß" (Bann 115)
"Gerhard Liebsch" (Bann and Jungbann 155)
"Paul Thewillis" (Bann 161)
"Horst Scharnagl" (Bann 189)
"Gerhard Kaufmann" (Bann 198)
"Georg Preiser" (Bann and Jungbann 199)
"Herbert Norkus" (Bann 201)
"Werner Gerhard" (Jungbann 2/203)
"Elfriede Kahl" (BDM Untergau 220)
"Christian Größmann" (Bann 249)
"Karl Thomas" (Bann 513)

The most interesting of the honour names I suppose is Elfriede Kahl. She was the Untergauführerin of Untergau 220 Arnstadt (Gebiet 17 Thüringen) and died in a car crash in Sept 1934 whilst travelling on official business with the Bannführer 220, Becker and a Gauführerin Lena Heinze from the Obergaustab. Anyway, she was clearly very respected and Untergau 220 was granted the honour name "Elfriede Kahl".
 
Hey Gary ! I have this portrait in my collection which fully slipped my mind the other day. Shows a cuff for Rudolf Schroter, one of the martyrs. Also thank you very much for all the wonderful insight from 2 Ausweis. Every item really can tell a story. So thank you for that.

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Simply a beautiful picture!
Nice to see those 3 drums with different painting.
And also the read his name behind at the wooden plate.
 
Joshlee23 said:
Hey Gary ! I have this portrait in my collection which fully slipped my mind the other day. Shows a cuff for Rudolf Schroter, one of the martyrs.
Click to expand...
Yes, that CT was part of the reason for me linking to the thread in post #11 (y)
 
There was also such a name plaque in the Hall of honour of the Reichsseesportschule 1, Gorch Fock. I still have a picture of it somewhere...

Edit: Found it.
 
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As promised, a clearer photo :)

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