Bann 732
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This is Bann Müllheim, Süd/Baden. It was created by splitting Bann 142, Lörrach, into the continued Bann 142 and 732 on 1 February 1941.
I wouldn't be surprised if Garry could also give you the leader for 1943.
BTW: Müllheim has nothing to do with Müll/rubbish, as you might think, but with mills.
I wouldn't be surprised if Garry could also give you the leader for 1943.
BTW: Müllheim has nothing to do with Müll/rubbish, as you might think, but with mills.
Yes, I missed it. Thanks!
Jack is of course correct with the name and triangle although I, pedantic as I am, would just add that I don't, from the HJ-Gebiet Baden orders, see exactly when that Bann was raised. On 1.1.1941 Reichsjugendführer Axmann ordered that all NSDAP Kreise were to become independent HJ-Banne. The raising of Bann 742 Rappoltsweiler (HJ-Research Bann lists), for example, was announced in a newspaper article dated 12.1.1941 so logically, all of the new 7-series Gebiet Baden Banne are likely to have been announced at this time although they would not of course have been up and running straight away. Indeed, a newspaper article dated 6.5.1941 reported that Bann 731 was fully up and running at that point.
I don't know which source Wim used for his book but he says February 1941 for the raising of Bann 732 and I say it was likely to be Jan 1941 so a difference of a month. I don't even know why I wrote this post
I don't know which source Wim used for his book but he says February 1941 for the raising of Bann 732 and I say it was likely to be Jan 1941 so a difference of a month. I don't even know why I wrote this post
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Thank you, Garry. Accuracy is not pedantry and, moreover, it is a must in research.
The subject seems to be a bit blurred. One would expect such a serious reorganisation to have been ordered from Berlin at the identical time.
For Baden you have named a source, which I do not doubt.
Buddrus mentions 1 February 1941 (p. 1091, footnote 32) for the division of the HJ Gebiet of Schlesien:
32 Das bisherige Gebiet Schlesien (4) wurde in Angleichung an
die Gaue der NSDAP am 1.2.1941 in die neuen Gebiete Niederschlesien
(4) und Oberschlesien (40) geteilt.
32 The previous area of Silesia (4) was divided in alignment with the
the NSDAP districts on 1.2.1941 into the new areas of Lower Silesia
(4) and Upper Silesia (40).
The creation of the two Gaue Niederschlesien and Oberschlesien had taken place on the symbolic date of 18 January 1941 (Founding of the Kingdom of Prussia 1701):
Die Gaue Niederschlesien und Oberschlesien sind mit Wirkung vom 18. Januar 1941 aus dem Gau Schlesien gebildet worden.
The Gaue Lower Silesia and Upper Silesia were formed from the Gau Silesia with effect from 18 January 1941.
Source: Wirtschaft und Statistik, 1st March issue 1941, p. 90, footnote 2.
So in this case the date of 1 January is unlikely.
However, it is also possible that this was published at the beginning of January and then executed in the middle of the month respectively at the beginning of February 1941.
This would explain why the literature on the Silesian Gau Division also contains a wide variety of dates: early 1941, January, 18 January, 1 February, etc.
As for the Bann leaders: I knew you had them
The subject seems to be a bit blurred. One would expect such a serious reorganisation to have been ordered from Berlin at the identical time.
For Baden you have named a source, which I do not doubt.
Buddrus mentions 1 February 1941 (p. 1091, footnote 32) for the division of the HJ Gebiet of Schlesien:
32 Das bisherige Gebiet Schlesien (4) wurde in Angleichung an
die Gaue der NSDAP am 1.2.1941 in die neuen Gebiete Niederschlesien
(4) und Oberschlesien (40) geteilt.
32 The previous area of Silesia (4) was divided in alignment with the
the NSDAP districts on 1.2.1941 into the new areas of Lower Silesia
(4) and Upper Silesia (40).
The creation of the two Gaue Niederschlesien and Oberschlesien had taken place on the symbolic date of 18 January 1941 (Founding of the Kingdom of Prussia 1701):
Die Gaue Niederschlesien und Oberschlesien sind mit Wirkung vom 18. Januar 1941 aus dem Gau Schlesien gebildet worden.
The Gaue Lower Silesia and Upper Silesia were formed from the Gau Silesia with effect from 18 January 1941.
Source: Wirtschaft und Statistik, 1st March issue 1941, p. 90, footnote 2.
So in this case the date of 1 January is unlikely.
However, it is also possible that this was published at the beginning of January and then executed in the middle of the month respectively at the beginning of February 1941.
This would explain why the literature on the Silesian Gau Division also contains a wide variety of dates: early 1941, January, 18 January, 1 February, etc.
As for the Bann leaders: I knew you had them
Hi Jack,
Yes, Schlesien was split due to territorial gains as Germany advanced eastwards. Administratively speaking, Gebiet 4 Schlesien simply became too large once Ost-Oberschlesien was returned so it was split into 4 and 40. I have a document here showing 9.2.1941 as the official date for that. Buddrus has it a week or so earlier but clearly the split happened at the beginning of Feb 1941 as you say.
The order from Axmann dated 1.1.1941 that I mentioned concerned itself with the creation of independent Banne along county (NSDAP Kreis) lines which did indeed take time to implement. I have a source here as an example (HJ-Gebietsbefehl Westfalen K20/41 dated Oct 1941) which shows the splitting of Banne in Gebiet 9 along NSDAP Kreis lines. This resulted in the creation of new Banne such as 833, 834 etc which were officially raised on 1.10.1941 so fully ten months after the order.
As far as Gebiete like 41 Ost-Hannover (raised 1.9.1942) and 42 Westfalen-Süd (raised 15.11.1942) are concerned I don't seem to have the NSDAP/RJF order that stipulated this but undoubtedly it had to do with the desired/required alignment of the borders of Hitler Youth units Bann/Gebiet with those of the NSDAP Kreis/Gau. I will of course endeavour to find that order.
Yes, Schlesien was split due to territorial gains as Germany advanced eastwards. Administratively speaking, Gebiet 4 Schlesien simply became too large once Ost-Oberschlesien was returned so it was split into 4 and 40. I have a document here showing 9.2.1941 as the official date for that. Buddrus has it a week or so earlier but clearly the split happened at the beginning of Feb 1941 as you say.
The order from Axmann dated 1.1.1941 that I mentioned concerned itself with the creation of independent Banne along county (NSDAP Kreis) lines which did indeed take time to implement. I have a source here as an example (HJ-Gebietsbefehl Westfalen K20/41 dated Oct 1941) which shows the splitting of Banne in Gebiet 9 along NSDAP Kreis lines. This resulted in the creation of new Banne such as 833, 834 etc which were officially raised on 1.10.1941 so fully ten months after the order.
As far as Gebiete like 41 Ost-Hannover (raised 1.9.1942) and 42 Westfalen-Süd (raised 15.11.1942) are concerned I don't seem to have the NSDAP/RJF order that stipulated this but undoubtedly it had to do with the desired/required alignment of the borders of Hitler Youth units Bann/Gebiet with those of the NSDAP Kreis/Gau. I will of course endeavour to find that order.
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Absolutely, and that's why I think that SHAEF, despite all its flaws, or the list of German counties can give us clues to the remaining white spots on the Bann list.
Other ingredients are, of course, vigilance and luck .
Funny you should say that
Back in 2006 when I first began to research my Bann lists I added a folder called "possible missing Banne"on my hard drives for each Gau and am still using them. The folders contain lists of all of the NSDAP Kreise within the respective Gau and so using these I'm able to see, by process of elimination, which of the Kreise were Banne and which of them may have become a Bann at a later point. I found a few new Banne that way actually so yes, very useful 
Garry,
1. What is your source, please?
2. [02.1944] BDM-Mädelhauptgruppenführerin Werneke
Regards,
Igor
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Hello, Garry,Hi Igor,
The source for my entries are Gebiet 21 Baden Gebietsbefehle for those years. Thanks for your 732 addition but I can only add it if you have a source that you can post here or can PM to me
Thanks for your input. Same to me.
??
So do you have a source for the BDM leader that you can show? You usually say "I saw it in a newspaper" but never show the newspaper or even say what it is called or where to find it. As I have said in the past, I'm more than happy to go and read the source myself but you're going to have to help a little - or alternatively just post a screenshot of your source. Otherwise I can't add the name that you have there to my leader project. Sorry.