Early numbers convertion question

Forums New posts
Bann 171

Bann 171

Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
139
Thanks Received
94
Location
Mannheim Area
Hi,
In my number researches for Bann171 I came across these numbers in the archive pre 1935 files. I wounder why there are 2 times roman numbers....
Do i interpet the numbers correctly?
2/IV/2/171 Fähnlein2, Unterbann 4, ???, Bann171
II/4/III/171 SCHAR 2, Gefolgschaft 4, unterbann 3, Bann 171
 
Stamp

Here the originals

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Bann 171 said:
Hi,
In my number researches for Bann171 I came across these numbers in the archive pre 1935 files. I wounder why there are 2 times roman numbers....
Do i interpet the numbers correctly?
2/IV/2/171 Fähnlein2, Unterbann 4, ???, Bann171
II/4/III/171 SCHAR 2, Gefolgschaft 4, unterbann 3, Bann 171
Click to expand...

Hello Dirk,

so that you can better understand, here is the example for the Bann 45.
I agree with you, it's not easy to understand.
here is the meaning in German, taken from a HJ book of 1934.

Source: Das Buch der Hitlerjugend - Die Jugend im Dritten Reich.
Herausgegeben von Ulf Uweson and Walther Biersch -
Park-Verlag Eugen Sibler, München 1934, page 67

Best Regards
Eric
You don't have permission to view attachments.

PS : if you want an enlargement of the image, you have to double click on it !
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Isn't the stamp given you the answer for one of them?

So, I would say (2/IV/2/171):
Schar 2
Stamm IV
Fähnlein 2 (Benz)
Bann 171 (Mannheim)

From a note from May 11, 1933 I know a stamp could have:
2/IV/170, which means Unterbann 170 (the later Bann-number),
with Gefolgschaft IV and Schar within Gefolgschaft 2.

Due to the summer 1933 re-organization it became as:

With an announcement from August 8, 1933 they mention for the HJ:
Kameradschaft
Schar
Gefolgschaft
Unterbann
Bann
Gebiet
Obergebiet

The Unterbann was to be numbered with Roman numbers , so I, II, III, IV and V
a Gefolgschaft, which existed in the Unterbann, was to be numbered Latin, so 1, 2 and 3
a Schar within a Gefolgschaft was to be numbered also in Latin, so 1, 2 and 3
a Kameradschaft from a Schar was to be numbered also in Latin, so 1, 2 and 3.
As such it was explained in the Verordnungsblatt number 13, from August 8, 1933,
number 101 (Einheiten der HJ).

For the Jungvolk it should be as (according Verordnungsblatt 17 from August 18, 1933):
Jungenschaft
Jungzug
Fähnlein
Stamm
Jungbann

The scedule from Widukind gives good explanation. Who said, the Germans made easy
systems?
 
many decades ago, it took me a long time to understand the HJ organization's system.
It was only by buying books from this time that I had the solution.
 
Thanks!

Thank you very much !! I thought I had it down but if you do not use it all the time it fades....
Thanks again I really appreciate yours help!
Dirk
PS
Hi Wim!
 
After years and having enough documentation one is able to understand the
system. It all makes it difficult due to the re-organizing of the system.

When they changed the system of Unterbann-numbers into Bann-numbers
there was somwhat a better understanding of it all. For me it was new that
the numbers were granted and had to do with the old army infantry-
regiments (zur Wahrung der Überlieferung der alten Armee wird anheim-
gestellt, die Nummern der früheren Infanterie-Regimenter zu wählen).
 
In "Uniformen der HJ" from 1933 flags were shown as samples.
In the 1934-edition the flags were the same.
The numbers are as the August 1933 numbering instructions
(see earlier post):

The Schar-flag 2/3 V/134 (Plauen):
Schar 2, Gefolgschaft 3, Unterbann V, Bann 134

You don't have permission to view attachments.


The Gefolgschafts-flag 3/IV B 17 (Ludwigshafen):
Gefolgschaft 3, Unterbann IV, Bann B 17:

You don't have permission to view attachments.


Of course the B stands for Bavarian units.
In my opinion the explaining for the numbering as before August 1933
was somewhat more difficult.

The structure as published in "Aufbau, Gliederung und Anschriften der
HJ" from January 20, 1934. From Oberbann and higher no indications
were found with the flags (they were to be found elsewhere: piping
colors and triangles):

You don't have permission to view attachments.

You don't have permission to view attachments.


With the "Verordnungsblatt der RJF (HJ)" from March 21, 1935 new
instructions for the flags were published. The classification was as:
Bannfahne, Jungbannfahne, Gefolgschaftsfahne, Fähnleinfahne,
Jungenschaftswimpel.

You don't have permission to view attachments.


And so it remained until the end of the war (images are taken from:
"Symbole, Uniformen, Abzeichen usw. der Gliederungen der NSDAP",
Tafe; II Zusammenstellung der wichtigsten Bildtafeln des Organisations-
buches der NSDAP):

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Hello,

The way of numbering the units in the HJ was nothing else than the way of numbering the units in the army (and that, since the 19th century). After 1936, the "visible" numbering was writen on the same basis but with less informations.

A Gebiet (Division) was written with..... latin numbers
A Oberbann (Brigade).......................... roman numbers
A Bann (Regiment).................................. latin numbers
A Unterbann, later Stamm (Bataillon). roman numbers
A Gefolgschaft (Company)...................... latin numbers
A Schar (Section)................................. roman numbers
A Kameradschaft (Group)....................... latin numbers

Best regards
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top