Help with BDM Untergau 164 Pennant

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Dean427

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Hi,...kinda new to the forum and was hoping to get more information concerning the BDM Untergau pennants.
......first, what do the numbers at the top stand for ? ......is it a regiment number?........if so is there a way to link the number and location of the regiment together? Next , would/could there be more than Untergau pennant with the same number? Or is each pennant one of a kind and only one was made with that regiment number on it? Also are these pennants rare?....is there a guess on the number produced? And is there any history on them? Lastly, ....what should I expect to pay for one of these pennants?...........the reason I ask is because I have opportunity to buy one of these and want to better understand them. Any help would be appreciated . Ty.
 
Hi there,

All four branches of the Hitler Youth used the same numbering system after 1935 (standardisation of the structure and of flags/pennants) so in the case of the BDM pennant the numbers mean:

top line: number of the Mädelgruppe (representing around 150 girls) within the Untergau (representing around three thousand girls).
bottom line: the number of the Untergau.

The forum has two sections showing how this all worked. The first lists the number on the bottom line of flags/pennants and their the locations (and the corresponding sleeve triangle) and the second is an ongoing project to put a name to the location shown by the number on the top line.

Bann number lists - Area triangle lists

Complete lists of Bann numbers for most years between 1933 to 1943 with their locations and the parent HJ Gebiet. Want to know which sleeve triangle/Gebietsdreieck goes with your HJ and DJ shoulder straps or indeed the other way around: which Bann or Jungbann numbers go with which triangle...
www.hj-research.com www.hj-research.com

Lower level unit identification

The purpose of this forum is to combine our resources to compile a list of the Hitlerjugend, Bund Deutscher Mädel, Deutsches Jungvolk and Jungmädel units below the Bann, BDM-Untergau, Jungbann and JM-Untergau level. These lists contain HJ Gefolgschaft, BDM and JM Mädelgruppe, DJ Fähnlein...
www.hj-research.com www.hj-research.com

Only one pennant existed for each unit. These pennants were certainly not rare items back then but very few would appear to have survived so prices are relatively high. Can you post pictures of the one you are considering?
 
Crack,....thank for the info.... apparently I can't upload any photos until my gold membership has been approved.
Registered and made payment Saturday.....still waiting..
 
Here is a picture of the style pennant that I'm considering buying.....
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Hi Dean,

That's the Untergau Wimpel. Now, they are rare and more desirable than the next pennant down (Mädelgruppe / Jungmädelgruppe). Do you have any pics of the one that you're looking at?
 
Gary,....yes I do ,...wanted you wait until I had it in my hands,..but beings that i already purchased it from the gentleman and it is now in the mail coming to me.....I'll go ahead and share the photos that he sent me. But I would like to post a new thread after I received it this week with more detailed photos........see attached

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Nice find. Based on the pics that one looks fine although it is missing its clips. We didn't have it on our lists yet so I have added it :thumb:

How much did you pay if you don't mind me asking?
 
Well, the pennant one level down from yours (example) can go for hundreds more than you paid for the Untergau pennant. I'm guessing that you didn't buy it from a dealer because 140US is a total steal. A dealer might want 1200US for it - possibly a little less as it doesn't have its original clips (not really a big deal in my opinion but some do prefer these to still have them). As I say, going by the pics you have got yourself a huge bargain :)
 
Yes,.... you are right I did not buy it from a dealer. I saw it for sale on Facebook Marketplace Saturday..... the gentleman (who is in his late sixties and from Maryland ) was asking $150 for it ..... I told him I didn't know much about it but I would take a chance on it for $100. He came back and told me he guarantees its authenticity and he would do a $140 and free shipping. I agreed. When I asked him how he acquired it he told me that his father had just passed away and this was in his safe. He believes it was given to his father by his father's Uncle who was in World War 2..... so basically a bring back.
He says he always remembers it being in the safe and if that's the case that would explain why the colors look so nice when compared to others. I search the internet and cannot find any real examples show and or for sale other than what you have on your forum. Maybe he did the same and that's why he priced it accordingly.
 
Nice. Would you be happy to post the dimensions of the pennant (the length of the side where the clips were and the length of either the top or bottom edge)? If you could post a couple of close-up shots of the eagle embroidery and the area around the swastika that would be great too.

Yes, as far as I know we have all of the presently known Untergau pennants recorded in our list but there will be others in offline private collections of course for which we don't have photos. New ones surface every now and again but they are rare.
 
Yes it would be my honor too... I'll post a bunch of detailed pictures and measurements of all three sides I'll do this in a new thread on Thursday
 
BDM Untergau 164 Pennant Finally arrived!!!

I have posted a lot of pictures for everyone to see,.... please feel free to make comments on any history of the pennant that you might have. Also would like to know what does the regiment number 164 represents. Ty

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Nice. I don't see any problems there. Looks like you scored yourself a major bargain but more importantly you've found a piece of history that has lain hidden for so many years.

Dean427 said:
Also would like to know what does the regiment number 164 represents.
Click to expand...

Crack posted it earlier in the thread but you can find that info here:

Bann number lists - Area triangle lists

Complete lists of Bann numbers for most years between 1933 to 1943 with their locations and the parent HJ Gebiet. Want to know which sleeve triangle/Gebietsdreieck goes with your HJ and DJ shoulder straps or indeed the other way around: which Bann or Jungbann numbers go with which triangle...
www.hj-research.com www.hj-research.com

Excerpt follows:

Untergau 164 was Weser/Leine (from 1939 Untergau 164 Bückeberg) and was located in Gebiet 8 Niedersachsen. Untergau headquarters were located originally in Hannover, Rosenstraße 7. By 1937 they had relocated to Adolf-Hitler-Strasse 18 in Hameln.


The list just gives you the name/location of the unit and the correct sleeve triangle over time but period magazines, books, newspapers and other sources will help to paint a fuller picture so I'll try to find stuff like that and will post what I find here. Obviously all members are welcome to add any info that they might have.
 
Surprised this one hasn't garnered more interest from the membership. Great find Dean427 and congrats on getting such a good deal on it. I would think it could go for more than the figure mentioned by Garry though. Maybe 2500US?
 
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