HJ Armband stamped 'Motorbann IV/471'

Joined
Feb 11, 2021
Messages
8
Thanks Received
0
Hello all,

I recently got this HJ Armband, which, according to the stamp on it, belonged to a member of 'Motorbann IV/471' if I read it correctly (the stamp has worn off a lot, so it's kind of hard to read). It's in very nice condition and I don't think there are any problems with it, except for the RZM label. As far as I know, an armband should have a 'B-label' for cloth insignia (or 'Baumwolle', where the 'B' comes from). Mine, however, has an 'A-label' (which stands for equipment or 'Ausrüstung), which also looks fine in my opinion but I'm just wondering why this label is on the armband. According to what I have read, it is possible that they would have used different labels because the proper ones were unavailable at the time. I'm not really sure though since I've seen other ones with an 'A-label' listed online, but I'm pretty certain this particular label wasn't attached later and I bought it from a trustworthy dealer. There is, of course, no real way to be certain.

I'm looking forward to your professional opinions.

Best regards,
Gerebernus

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Hello Gerebernus,

welcome to our forum and I hope you find the answers to your questions.
Regarding your HJ armband, I can assure you that it is an original.
You are absolutely right, the manufacturers used what they had at their disposal especially during the war.
Therefore, I don't see where the problem lies if the RZM tag starts with an A or B unless you are a RZM Tag specialist of course.
I myself have noticed the same thing in the past with some items in my collection.
It could be that your HJ armband was cleaned and the RZM tag was put back on afterwards, it's very simple to do using steam.

Best Regards
Eric
 
The big letters (on the left) are commonly believed to represent the tax class. A stands for 0.5 Pfennig, B for 1 Pfennig, and so on, to pay by the maker to the Reichszeugmeisterei (RZM). The more elaborate the production, the more expensive the tax.
Whereas the smaller "A4" represents the category, A: Ausrüstung (equipment), 4: Textilabzeichen (fabric badges).

One would expect a B (tax) letter on the tag for an armband, you're right on that.

Regards,
Jack
 
The big letters (on the left) are commonly believed to represent the tax class. A stands for 0.5 Pfennig, B for 1 Pfennig, and so on, to pay by the maker to the Reichszeugmeisterei (RZM). The more elaborate the production, the more expensive the tax.
Whereas the smaller "A4" represents the category, A: Ausrüstung (equipment), 4: Textilabzeichen (fabric badges).
One would expect a B (tax) letter on the tag for an armband, you're right on that. Jack

This is right. It is specified in the RZM manufacturing regulations from 1938 on page 17.
The tags go from A through P, respectively 0,5 Pfennig too 50 Pfennig.
It is further specified red print = HJ and blue is SA and political leaders
 
Thanks for confirming that, Wim.
Do I remember it correctly from your book that the early HJ tag's colour had been blue first and then changed to red in 1938?
I got an early multiple-part armband with a blue tag (not "halb" as for the straps).

You don't have permission to view attachments.


@Gerebernus: Forgot to ask what the precise measures of your armband were.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Last edited:
This is right. It is specified in the RZM manufacturing regulations from 1938 on page 17.
The tags go from A through P, respectively 0,5 Pfennig too 50 Pfennig.
It is further specified red print = HJ and blue is SA and political leaders

Hello Wim,

thank you for additional information. I have several HJ triangles with RZM tags, some have inscriptions in blue, normal or not?
I think the manufacturers used these tags because they had nothing else. Am I wrong?
Here is an example of a triangle made after 1938.
You don't have permission to view attachments.


Best Regards
Eric
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Hi Eric,

our posts overlapped ;-).
As far as I remember from Wim's book, the first Hj related tags were blue, and then a change to red took place in 1938.
Your tag has the "halb" inscription (halber Pfennig) that's fine and goes perfectly with a triangle.
The armband tag should be without that "halb".
But let's wait for Wim's confirmation, hopefully.
 
Hello Jack,

thank you for your explanations, I've never been interested in RZM Tags that's why I asked this question. They often indicate that the Item is mint but this is not always the case, I am very wary with the items on the market now.
 
Thank you all again for the very helpful replies.

@Jack: the armband measures 10,5cm (4.13inch) by 19cm (7.5inch) when layed out flat like in the pictures. This means the full length before it was sewn together, would have been around 39cm (15.35inch), also taking in account the overlapping 1cm (0.4inch) piece in the centre where the Armband is sewn together.
 
Hi Eric,

our posts overlapped ;-).
As far as I remember from Wim's book, the first Hj related tags were blue, and then a change to red took place in 1938.
Your tag has the "halb" inscription (halber Pfennig) that's fine and goes perfectly with a triangle.
The armband tag should be without that "halb".
But let's wait for Wim's confirmation, hopefully.

If I wrote it, it will have been mentioned in some regulation.
I am forgetting things these days, as I am getting old(er).
 
10.5 cm fits perfectly the regulations, Gerebernus. The red stripes should have 4.0 cm in width, the white one 2.5 cm. The measures of the white square: 7.0 x 7.0 cm (often seen smaller - or shrunk...?).

Eric, of course you have very cautious these days. A tag is attached very quickly, seems to guarantee authenticity and definitely some more bucks for the seller. So a wrong tax letter should make the alarm bells ring ... because that's the one thing that has been working in Germany at all times - to collect taxes.

A plain shoulderstrap should go with a C letter, up to F or G (can't remember exactly) with some pips and Litze.
I've seen some of them with an A :001_rolleyes:, and it was one of the best known dealers.
 
Thanks Wim, not old but wiser ;-).
If you don't sue me I'll post it here (it's on page 39 f. of Wim's book) :neth

You don't have permission to view attachments.


You don't have permission to view attachments.
(emphasis mine)
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Back
Top