The color:
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HJ Meisterschütze M1/63
- Thread starter HJ_Collector
- Start date
RZM and Marker:
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Here you can see what i mean by "plates" or "flakes" of gilding that have fallen off, and not worn off.RZM and Marker:
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Sticking to my opinion that it is fake.
So, as I unfortunately can not make sharp macros with my camera, I've just ordered a macro lens. So you have to just wait until next week, then come good pictures!
Jo, I respect your opinion to pieces, but I think you're wrong here! That would M1 / 63 convert approximately 50% of all situated on the market as a fake. I've recently racked my brain how to most easily recognize a real badge. And I think I've found the solution. Each manufacturer has its own "Fngerabdruck" he used in each of his badge. When the shooting badge is the diamond, more precisely the area lies below the red enamel. Just a few millimeters wide field is covered with small knobs in a certain number and pattern. These patterns are carakteristisch for each manufacturer. Each uses a different! And so it is with the fakes. Modern fakes are not using the correct pattern! Exceptions are upgraded Badge (silver is gold) or from original parts compiled badge. I think you often need no microscope to reliably be able to recognize original badge. You just have to know the pattern of the manufacturer and can sometimes select whether to buy or not. We can do only us together and gather detailed images of a variety of badges of different manufacturers. Google Übersetzer (mein Englisch ist schlecht)
Jo, I respect your opinion to pieces, but I think you're wrong here! That would M1 / 63 convert approximately 50% of all situated on the market as a fake. I've recently racked my brain how to most easily recognize a real badge. And I think I've found the solution. Each manufacturer has its own "Fngerabdruck" he used in each of his badge. When the shooting badge is the diamond, more precisely the area lies below the red enamel. Just a few millimeters wide field is covered with small knobs in a certain number and pattern. These patterns are carakteristisch for each manufacturer. Each uses a different! And so it is with the fakes. Modern fakes are not using the correct pattern! Exceptions are upgraded Badge (silver is gold) or from original parts compiled badge. I think you often need no microscope to reliably be able to recognize original badge. You just have to know the pattern of the manufacturer and can sometimes select whether to buy or not. We can do only us together and gather detailed images of a variety of badges of different manufacturers. Google Übersetzer (mein Englisch ist schlecht)
I am not quite sure what the meaning behind this post is, but i`ll just leave it as: I disagree, can and have proved it many times in print, in articles and on a few forums, that everything you have said, is wrong.So, as I unfortunately can not make sharp macros with my camera, I've just ordered a macro lens. So you have to just wait until next week, then come good pictures!
Jo, I respect your opinion to pieces, but I think you're wrong here! That would M1 / 63 convert approximately 50% of all situated on the market as a fake. I've recently racked my brain how to most easily recognize a real badge. And I think I've found the solution. Each manufacturer has its own "Fngerabdruck" he used in each of his badge. When the shooting badge is the diamond, more precisely the area lies below the red enamel. Just a few millimeters wide field is covered with small knobs in a certain number and pattern. These patterns are carakteristisch for each manufacturer. Each uses a different! And so it is with the fakes. Modern fakes are not using the correct pattern! Exceptions are upgraded Badge (silver is gold) or from original parts compiled badge. I think you often need no microscope to reliably be able to recognize original badge. You just have to know the pattern of the manufacturer and can sometimes select whether to buy or not. We can do only us together and gather detailed images of a variety of badges of different manufacturers. Google Übersetzer (mein Englisch ist schlecht)
The microscope, though, is indeed the only sensible way forward when it comes to conclusively answering questions. Omitting the forum poster, owner, seller and all personal or financial interest.
I use a more advanced microscope of late, for the purpose of presenting my research, or even just a simple comparison between fake and original - in 3D video form. For shear amusement i might add, and to give those who are looking to get away from this baseless opinionated direction of general authentication the hobby has taken.
Here is an short example for those interested.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHA7VApLqbQ
The each manufacturer has his own fingerprint would be challenged with the documented and proven fact that many sub-contractors were used by multiple makers at the same time. (Encouraged to by the RZM) In the 2013 Party Badge Book there is chapter about them, with many examples of the same obverse die being used in combination with 10 and more reverse dies and various Berechtigungsscheinnummern.
And to end off, a brief video below of possible interest.
https://www.weitze.net/militaria/77/NSDAP_Paar_Manschettenknoepfe__230177.html
They were first sold in bulk for €39.- on German sites, now only 8-9 years later, they are up as genuine, for €200.- and more...
Here is a 3D video i made to show how the planchets are actually made, poorly cast cheap white metal, with a thin layer of soft enamel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAUIcHxIi00
Not sure what else to say really.
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Does this sound surprising to you? Only 50% would be great if it was only as bad as that. I can give you an example of a badge that 100% of all of them offered by any dealer, anywhere, is fake. 100% not 50%, and they are offered every day, by dozens of dealers and authors.but I think you're wrong here! That would M1 / 63 convert approximately 50% of all situated on the market as a fake.
You could read that here if you wanted to.
There is also an overpopulation of these, what should be considerably rare badges, on the "market", so naturally there is going to be a fish smell. That smell will linger until someone with enough interest and motivation comes along and does a detailed study of these, proving and supporting their findings.
Danke für die ausführliche Erklärung! Ich werde versuchen noch viele Details zu sammeln. Vielleicht ist es möglich eine Datenbank für HJ Schiessauszeichnungen zu erstellen. Wenn das Abzeichen wirklich eine Kopie ist, kann ich es jederzeit wieder nach Hamburg zurück senden.
Und danke vom ganzen Herzen, dass es Leute gibt wie Dich, die unser Hobby wissenschaftlich betreiben!
Grüße, Gerold
Thanks for the detailed explanation! I'll try to collect many more details. Perhaps it is possible to create a database for HJ shooting Awards. If the badge is actually a copy, I can send it at any time back to Hamburg.
And thank you with all my heart that there are people like you who take our hobby scientifically!
Regards, Gerold
Und danke vom ganzen Herzen, dass es Leute gibt wie Dich, die unser Hobby wissenschaftlich betreiben!
Grüße, Gerold
Thanks for the detailed explanation! I'll try to collect many more details. Perhaps it is possible to create a database for HJ shooting Awards. If the badge is actually a copy, I can send it at any time back to Hamburg.
And thank you with all my heart that there are people like you who take our hobby scientifically!
Regards, Gerold
A database of "general images" taken from the net/forums etc would be a start, but you`d need to be able to inspect the various versions and variations in great detail.
A good place to start would to be to see how the actual badge is made, the basic design of the leaves on the wreath.
I have been doing a similar thing - looking at the wreaths - with another collector for a while now, on the GPBs, but for another reason altogether, not to tell fake from genuine but rather to study the die flaws found on various badges. Below is an example of a typical flaw observed on many Fuess GPBs, as well as two sets of images from different badges, but both showing the same minute die flaws on the tips of some leaves.
That is something we have just been doing for fun, but a short study of only a part of a leaf, for example, could also be done with these Meisterschützenabz.
This next image is from a part of a leaf on a Deschler made GPB, nothing special i know, but imagine if you could get an image of this quality and natural colors, of each variant! All you would then need to do, would be to compare the images and it will become very obvious which one is genuine.
A good place to start would to be to see how the actual badge is made, the basic design of the leaves on the wreath.
I have been doing a similar thing - looking at the wreaths - with another collector for a while now, on the GPBs, but for another reason altogether, not to tell fake from genuine but rather to study the die flaws found on various badges. Below is an example of a typical flaw observed on many Fuess GPBs, as well as two sets of images from different badges, but both showing the same minute die flaws on the tips of some leaves.
That is something we have just been doing for fun, but a short study of only a part of a leaf, for example, could also be done with these Meisterschützenabz.
This next image is from a part of a leaf on a Deschler made GPB, nothing special i know, but imagine if you could get an image of this quality and natural colors, of each variant! All you would then need to do, would be to compare the images and it will become very obvious which one is genuine.
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Das ist eine gute Idee! Ich werde aber einen neuen Beitrag für dieses Thema eröffnen! Sonst geht diese wichtige Information in der Tiefe dieses Beitrags verloren!
That's a good idea! However, I will open up a new post for this topic! Otherwise this important information is lost in the depths of this post!
That's a good idea! However, I will open up a new post for this topic! Otherwise this important information is lost in the depths of this post!