Marine-Jugend Glückstadt cap tally

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mkholst

mkholst

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I have had this cap tally for some time, and I have tried to find out from what period it is, but I can’t find any information in my books or on the internet.

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I.m.o. it must be an early one, as the later ones is MHJ or Marine Hitler Jugend.

Do any of you know at what time it changed from MJ to MHJ ?

Michael :denmark
 

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Pre 1933 and after 1945 several youth organisations used the name Marinejugend or Marine-Jugend.
There was no nationwide organisation that had a copyright on the term.
If you check with the German version of Wikipedia you will find several hits, mostly in biographys of people.
But there is no article about all these different groups and what their aims, uniforms and detailed organisations were.
So there is no real connection to the MHJ. Even though one or the other group might have joined the MHJ after 1933.
 
Thanks to both of you.

Henrik - you may have a point, but when you try to find Glückstadt in the contemporary list of Marine-Jugend places in the link you send, it is not on that list. When looking on sites about modern MJ, there are no pics of MJ in uniforms.

Christian - pre 1933 or after 1945, how to find out if it is pre 1933 ore after 1945 ? In my eyes the tally looks MHJ-style, and I can't find a modern tally anywhere on the internet. Do you have a pic of a modern one ? just to compare.

I have still hope to find out from what period the tally is :help:

Michael :denmark
 
From what period the tally is, I do not know. Maybe Marine-HJ has an answer here.

Before the Marine-HJ came into being there were many such naval youth groups in existance.
In about the early 1930's most of them were combined into the "Marine-Jugendbund", which
was a part from the " Bund Deutscher Marine-Vereine". The youth was organized into "Marine-
Jugenddivisonen" (existing within a Gauverband). Sub-divisions were the "Marine-Jugendabteilung".
And they had a uniform-regulation, which was a look-a-like for the later Marine-HJ. And they
did wear a tally then: Marine-Jugend-Abteilung. Officially the tally should have the following
lettering: M.J.A. - then a cituname - followed by B.D.M.V.
They also did wear a traingle upon the upper right arm, either having the color blue or white,
depending on what dress was worn. With white the white triangel was worn; with blue the blue
version with indication "Bund Deutscher Marine-vereine. Jugend-Abteilung". Later many of them
were incorporated within the Marine-HJ from the HJ, including the Marine-Jugenstürme from the
SA. This was 1933.

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Here a variation of the tally:

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Early Marine-HJ did or a short period of time use a tally with the indication: Marine-Hitler-Jugend.
Then the city-names were included.
 

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Here an advertisement from Fritz Finke from Wilhelmshaven from the
Weimar-period about the outh-groups from the BDMV:

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When I collected I owned in the mid-1970's a naval youth cap with the
indication (can't find the photo):
M.J.A. Eutin B.D.M.V.
The cap was for a very short period of time worn within the HJ when the
lad crossed over from the Marine-Jugendbund to the Marine Hitler-Jugend.

Marine-Jugend Glückstadt is not a common or regular combination, in my
opinion!
 

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cap tallies naval youth

Hi Folks,

unfortunately I have to say the Glueckstadt tally is post-war. The link of Henrik (cemifor) is very good and mentions also the emotional&practical reason why to restart the idea of naval education of the youth after the war. A few examples from my collection you will see attached - like during pre-war times there was also no "blueprint" how the inscription had to be (one says "MARINEJUGEND", the other "MARINE-JUGEND", the third even a dash between MARINEJUGEND and the town's name). Of the attached pictures, only the "Marine-Jugend" and the Norderney are post war. I have about ten different of them, all spread around the West Germany: Giessen, Bremerhaven, Wilhelmshaven and so forth. However, purely from my collection I can suspect the youth sections after the war were more popular in the North with access to the sea ... I guess the teenagers had better things to do then.

The BDMV had literally branches all over the Weimar' Republic. I have a list at home with postal addresses of their brnach offices and I think I counted around 180. I would assume, every single one had a youth section, a few of them on the first picture. Somehow, Wim's Eutin has also found its way into my collection - it is on a different photo. If someone wants to see more, just drop me a line. However, it needs to be mentioned that the BDMV tallies are rather rare as the composition of the blue tally is VERY fragile!

Then, on photos z1-z5 as well as z8-z10, you can see tallies which are worn pre WW1 as well as during Weimar. (This includes the Coburg tally which is made from yellow cotton and one might think this is post war). The ones I have posted here are only a small selection of mine and I can assure the phantasy with which the formations were abbreviated, is phenomenal! If someone has further interest in them, please drop me a line. As usual I'm at work and don't return home until mid September - so a reply might take a while.

I would like to point out a detail of pre-TR tallies with Latin lettering: the "Umlaut"-letters were not used pre oder during WW1, there they were always substitued by "UE" and "AE" and "OE". Now when you look at one of the pictures you will see the owner has actually hadsewn the tally to hide the "E" of "UE" and amended the remaining "U" to make it to the Umlaut to be conform with the fashion of the time.

As you can see there were also a few "odd" ones of the early naval HJ. The black Chemnitz tally is well known and introduced in this form already. I would like to show two more: "Marine HJ LIPPE" (take note also the slightly different font type). The other one is a white-on-black from Harburg (nowadays a district of Hamburg), again in a different font type.

When Wim mentioned the Jungsturm of the SA, I felt urged to attach also an image of this. This is the only one I know of - I have never seen anyone, no matter in a museum or collection or whereever. Also, despite collecting photos of all kinds, I was never lucky enough to see one with one of these Jungsturm tallies in wear. It's a little mystery to me - there should have been quite a number of boys organised in these and far more rare things are popping up over the time ...

Well, everything else was already said - more or less.

Rgds

Daniel

P.S.: when I wrote "fashion at the time" it reminded me of the German word "Zeitgeist" which you can actually also find in a British dictionary. However, Zeitgeist is more the popular way of thinking/mainstream opinion about something of a certain timespan. Anyone seen the controversal movie?

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And maybe more to come :clap2:

I have mailed private with Marine HJ and I asked him how to see if a tally is pre or postwar.

He asked for 2 close-up pics of front and back, which I have send to him. From the pics he will explain the difference.

So when he have the time, I think that we get the final chapter in the "Glückstadt-tally-history" :amen:

Michael :denmark
 
Sorry Michael, that I didn't have a chance yesterday evening to compile the post as promised. Will do today in the evening.

Daniel
 
Hi Daniel

Take your time - it is not SO important, we just wait - as I wrote in my last post: "So when he have the time".

Michael :denmark
 
Good morning again,

sorry, but there were some unforeseen stumbling stones in my way I couldn't manage my time better to give you an opiniom on the construction of the Marine-Jugend tally in question. Also, I had to dig fairly deep into my laptop to find these pictures ... only a genius masters the chaos ...

Cap tallies were woven by so called "Jacquard-weaving-machines" (Wiki in German: Jacquardwebstuhl – Wikipedia). How these beasts were working in detail has been explained by Norm Franke on WAF a few years ago (don't have a link to the thread handy, it was a cap tally thread). However, the work principle dictated that a relatively small loop appeared wherever the little runner (in German: "Schiffchen"- the English term is unknown to me) turned around with the white thread. And THIS is how you recognise an original tally straight away: the existance of the loops!
Now to the front: wherever the small loops are on the reverse, a kind of "shadow" appears on the front above and below each and every letter and number.

At modern machines this loop does not appear anymore due to the improved work principle. And luckily they also cannot re-create this loop again ... we lucky collectors. Also, reproductions of any tallies never had the same quality of the ribbon itself. The ribbon of post war tallies is rather rough and stiff, while pre-45 tallies are somewhat smooth. With the ones from the imperial times, they are indeed silk-like.

I hope the words which I try to find make sense to you at all. Anyway, the pictures might be a bit better to visualise what I tried to explain above.

Before I close this post, another two points:
1. So far only the Reichsseesportschule - tallies were reproduced (the Seeberufsfachschule is not a MHJ tally!) , never one from individual units.
2. The "loop and shadow" phenomenon not being present at repros has one single exception: the "Schlachtschiff Scharnhorst tally, which was sold in the HMS Belfast ships canteen - this was a near-perfect repro in this respect. However, it was never meant to be a repro with the purpose to blinker collectors.

OK, pictures.
1. & 2. The first two are Michael's Marine-Jugend tally. Neither above or below the letter is a loop. Unfortunately Michael has no MHJ tally which he could compare the smoothness with.
3. & 4. The next 2 images show the reverse and obverse of a period "M.HJ CHEMNITZ" - maybe one of you gifted computer geeks can put the reverse of Glueckstadt against the reverse of Chemnitz into a direct comparison on one picture?
5. & 6. The reverse and obverse of a second pattern Stollberg - also here the loops above and below very well visible.
7. The direct comparison between a 2nd pattern MHJ tally and a repro Kriegsmarine tally.
8. This is how a "2" looks from reverse ... just to show that also numbers and signs show the loops.
9. A stand-off photo of my photo modells - the very bottom one is an extremely rare bird. The V.M.V. was spread all over Germany in relatively small units. VMV ... Vaterlaendischer Marine Verein. Their tallies are very thin and fragile. Good photos with well readable tally are extremely hard to come by as the inscription seems to tended to fade more or less instanttly due to the high copper content of the thread. Therefore on photos the tallies are almost impossible to read. This, b.t.w., has also a bad effect on the interaction of the thread with the fragile ribbon - the letters are sometimes just falling out the ribbon (this can be also seen on early Kriegsmarine tallies with reddish-metall lettering which develops a fairly aggressive corrosion reaction with water)
10. A extract of a studio portrait of the 210 Stollberg in wear. No HJ badge but a monster eagle. I have a second photo of a different boy with exact the same non-conformities!

Rgds

Daniel

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Hi Wim,

well, cancelled ... not really ... but with my current work load (job and private) I cannot think of a book or publication in general. A good friend of mine (who's also member of this forum) tries really hard to convince me to start, but to be honest it is not feasable neither at this very point of time nor in foreseeable future. What I do wish is to convince in a very gentle way another fellow collector to finally complete a publication about the cap tallies of the Reichs- and Kriegsmarine ... you know who I'm talking about, Wim.
I definately have enough period material (about 160 cap tallies of the MHJ and another 60 or so of BDMV and pre-33 youth groupings, furthermore a fairly large collection of MHJ portraits and snapshots with well-readable tallies), but not much concrete knowledge from Bundesarchiv Koblenz and other archieves. So I'm not even sure whether I would be in an academic condition to be allowed to write a book ... the friend I spoke about first suggested that I could just write relatively little text and present the tallies and photos in a nice-to-watch way ...

Well, well. That's further down the line, Wim, I'm afraid. Unfortunately my professional career had been fairly troubled the past two years as the Oil&Gas sector took some serious beating. So this is settled for now but everyone will understand that Familiy needs to come first. Another disadvantagous thing came into play when I developed my passion for BMW youngtimers a few years ago. And last but not least: to learn the Norwegian language would take also priority to the book.

Rgds

Daniel
 
I understand all of it. A pity, but believe me there is no need for an academic researched
book. What your friend suggested would be okay and a good idea! I fear also a volume
about HJ in my series "Headgear of Hitler's Germany" still is a plan. My writing-plans
largely are put on a hold. I am not intending to write until the day I will leave this planet!

Yes, I know who you are talking about for the continuation of Reichs- and Kriegsmarine
tallies, but I know the situation there. I think it will never come to a finishing of the subject!
A real pity, as the first book is a great one with a lot of knowledge!​
 
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