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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by PAUL AYERST View Post
    WOOPS SORRY SAVE THAT FOR ANOTHER DAY. ref THE Polish PERSON YOU REFER TO DOES HE SPECIALIZE IN REPRODUCING TINNIES AND HAVE A SALES SITE ON THE WEB

    I know two Germans, who reproduce tinnies, on in Central the other in Southern Germany. The items they reproduce are so good that you would not know they are fake, except that they are all mint. In Poland everything is reproduced as well, but the quality is usually not that good. The Reproduced HJ achievement badges i showed a set of, are "supposedly" made in Poland, another person says Austria, so i dont know. But it could be Germany as well. Definitely not the USA though, that i am sure of.
    The Polish guy line- was a joke, as most Germans are of the opinion that all fakes come from Poland, and are easy to spot.
    The only sales sites i know of on the web, are selling poor copies, advertised as such. The good fakes, or fakes made to deceive come through the backdoor, and are usually available through the same few people, who have a big network over Europe and the USA. Usually though, they trade and sell to their friends long before they openly sell them on their own sites. It helps to have one or two of the fakes on a Good dealers site first, or even better in a book. They have boxes of the stuff, and every time a good dealer lists one, they will too, and usually make reference to that dealer if called out on a forum.

    The problem is that this has been going on since 1945, so something made in the late 40`s or 50`s is generally accepted as good now. And if it`s published, then even harder to debunk. Just look at the DJ and Olympic knives, not to mention countless smaller badges and items.

  2. #12
    THERE IS NOW A GROWING suspicion among collectors over here that some fakes are of such quality they are virtually undetectable this is proving to be very true . I certainly agree on the tinnies I have seen a growing number of reproed tinnies of great quality but in a mint state as you say always check for Sharpe edges.




  3. #13
    It`s a shame really, There are good collections out there that are being sold, but the general consensus is, as soon as two of the same are hosted somewhere, people become suspicious .. i saw it on WAF a while ago, a sympathy badge was shown with the comment.. I have seen three or four of these recently, therefore they must be a New fake... ?
    It always helps to look at where these items are coming from as well, as that usually speaks volumes. If we have trouble now with Older fakes, say from the 70`s, them what about the really early fakes? The Mothers Cross was an example used a few months ago, that nobody wanted to believe. We know from old adverts and Souvals own words that they sold 50,000 each year for over a decade. So that's 500,000 sold if not way more.. where are they now? where are all the Fake souval motherscross``Only fakes we see now, are those made in Hong Kong in 2004 lol... you follow? And he was just one European Maker of many during 1945-1970. And this is just one product we are talking about.
    Where are all the fake Iron cross`? Souval alone exported over 1 million in the 60`s .. where are they now? Only fakes we really see of these today are the more recent ones.

    You know, if these period makers made these items during 1933-1945, then you cant seriously believe that they would make them any different after that? they had the tools, knew the drill... and many of them made items post 45.

  4. #14
    YES MOST INTERESTING THOUGHTS. I WONDER THEN IF THE KEY TO SAY THE iron crosses is the ones with no stamps on the rings. There is not doubt that the makers kept up the trade after the cease fire


  5. #15

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    Well it's been some time since I looked to see what I've started. Looks like a discussion of sorts.
    Anyway since the last time I was here I purchased one more "S" mark. This is M 1/101 in the 220000 range. Also from the same maker I have a "B" mark without numbers and a 3 wave in the 190000 range. The 3 wave being one that was revolked (how bad do you need to screw up for that to happen? ).

    Back to the "S" ... I thought I had it in the bag when I saw yet another one on Beck Militaria and put it on hold until they could tell me what the "S" stood for.
    Here was my answer.

    Hello,

    „S“ represents „Silber“, a mark to stamp silber items from black items, probably.
    We tried to find more information, but again and again we found S = Silber.
    In adition, we found out that these items ( as we already knew) are original, since the stamp “S” was made.

    Regards
    Team Beck

    So back to the drawing board,
    Rudy


  6. #16
    Yes S= silver is a total bogus response and shows the lack of knowledge or care of the vendor. Make up a story sell to the believers and do it again and over again.

    All newer collectors should pay very close attention to this and other threads currently on the forum get by the negativity and hoist in the fact that this hobby as stated is so full of problems as to be untenable . No wonder collectors are selling out or not getting into the hobby everything even the most common must be looked at with a jaundiced eye . In several instances I have done due diligence on an item for up to two years before buying and made myself an expert before passing on the cash it is worth it every time



  7. #17
    as an adjunct my take on the S is it is for SOUVAL




  8. #18

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    I do hope that others will find some humor in that bunch of double talk like I did. The better response would have been "Sorry we looked but coul'nt find "S"h#t on that badge".

    So what are we saying? That these are post war fakes inside and out or post war real that were still being churned out? One thing I can add and that is the first one I recieved from my father (he was not really a collector) and that would take it back a good 30 years so it is not a rescent repro.
    Rudy

  9. #19
    IMO post war fakes. Souval was notorious for first supplying souvenirs to the GIs THEN MASS PRODUCING FOR THE VIRGIN COLLECTOR MARKET BACK THEN. I am 63 been collecting since 12 and saw these way back in 1960



  10. #20
    About the Beck Team. I still do business with them, i like them somewhat, they used to have really great items at good competetive prices, but recently, and i mean since around 2010, they have gone downhill fast, bad bad items on there with every update, terrible cast fakes and fantasy items too.. lots of good older dealers have started to sell more and more rubbish of late, it`s really depressing.

    Well, like i said, why would it mean Silber? or schwarz? no other item has the "color/content" stamped on it, and if they did, then all HJ proficiency badges would have, not just suddenly from a few makers (so far M1/101 and M1/35) during a brief period, almost a decade after they first started making them?

    Paul, i did`nt want to say that about Souval, but i was thinking the same thing. Now if this was an item like an SS Otto Gahr stickpin, with the letter S, we could debate for ages, but these are common items, that are everywhere in good condition for not that much money, so when you need to start making up stories about certain aspects, like "what S means" in this case, i would leave it alltogether and go for a normal piece.

    Revoked? I cant see that happening unless the guy was kicked out of Germany, the HJ, Army, RAD etc etc, i know with SA men, if you were kicked out, you had to return every item.. including the Party Badge if you were kicked out of the NSDAP etc, and only with permission could you keep some items. BUT.... if for any reason you were kicked out, or had your Proficiency badge revoked, then why would the number be made VOID? that does not make sense, as you could still wear it, not as if any person will check the reverse when it`s pinned on, and surely you would have to hand it back over if you did actually loose it?
    What could you do to get it revoked? it was given for Performance, so i cant see you actually loosing it? unless you got really fat and lazy i guess?
    There would also need to be Proficiency Booklets that show a Revoked/Void number too if this were the case. I have seen the stamped out numbers too from M1/101 and M1/35, also never wanted one.
    Just my opinion i guess, but i would not want a "S" marked piece, i dont like having to think up stories to explain the item to myself.

    edit: I guess an example of the way lots of dealers and collectors think... they cant explain certain aspects of the item, but they do know that they are real though. Beck said it himself, they have "found out" that they are original ? (which they knew anyway) how and why? they forgot to mention that. True that not all things can be explained, or are documented, but what they are saying just cant be true if you look at the items in context to the the Time period and maker(s) Lots of different opinions in this Hobby, just like the HJ Oak leaf badge thread, weitze thinks his one is real, and is selling it for €3500.- i say it`s a fake, and will soon take an identical one and chop it up for inspection..

    I know that i have a tendancy to go on and on about Learning and History etc etc, but when you really think about it, this Hobby has always been about money first, learn later, thats how Konrad Kujau was able to take the German newspapers for 11 million Mark in the 1980`s !!
    Last edited by Jo Rivett; 8th September 2011 at 11:15 PM.

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