Christopher Ailsby and the Golden HJ Honour Badge with Oak leaves.

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I would have no problem, however the Publish would not be very happy.

But back to the main question about the badge you put up for thought. Here is some of the work to draw comparisons, these would not be able to be included in the book due to the size and scope of it.

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WARLORD said:
This badge is for your comments.
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It`s a Reproduction, it shows the same HJ diamond as Your second badge (with different casing/border) and the same as the €3500.- Weitze badge.
I have one of these as well, and will dissect it next week. No place in a Book for:
• Provenance
• More info on reproductions of a scare award etc...
OMG ? do you publish online? using a format that only allows a certain amount of pages?
OK, i will keep the Publisher in mind when i scan the contents.
 
YOU ARE CORRECT. THE ONE POSTED AND ALSO SHOWN AS COMPARISON. They are the new copies. The one I post originally second, is totally different to the ones shown. This is the form that was awarded to Dr Todt and shown on his funeral pillow. The first I posted is that shown on the citation and in Dohler.

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The last picture with the bottom damage is infact another fake of the Dohler type.

An interesting point, "the €3500.- Weitze badge", has the copy mark on it as phillip-militaria.com. Is this Weitze under another name?

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No The Weitze company and (Doreen) Phillip Militaria don't have anything to do with each other.
 
Not quite sure what to say about your book, or the HJ Golden badge with oak leaves article ? Apart from the fact that nothing you say is backed up with a single footnote or period fact, period quote, evidence... zilch :mad2: , apart from the fact that there are items like the Silver Party Badge, RZM marked, M1/120 (page 36) described as Genuine and extremely rare, apart from the Fake Golden Party Badge by Christian Lauer (page 31) described as Very rare and ATTRIBUTED to Katherin Maier, :h apart from lots of items and pages, the cover is eye catching, that's about it. As far as info goes, and as far as it being a "Collectors Guide.." goes, Detrimental to the hobby. I would expect better, much Much better, from an Author and collector who has been collecting and writing about Third Reich items for a few decades. In short, it`s a Flop, you know it, i know it, and anyone who has been collecting for a few years knows it too. Enough about that, and on to the Weitze €3500.- fake.
☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆ ☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆ ☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆

36,894 mm long, 21,899 mm wide. With pin weighs in at 6,17997 gr. Gold plated, very good enamel. It is only when you take the badge apart, do you see the poor cheap metal, and Glued on HJ planchet.
continued below..................

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This one, is identical to the €3500.- one being offered right now at Weitzes. you can compare the pictures any which way you want, and it`s clear that they are made using the same dies. Now why is this being sold as Original? i guess, because it`s pictured in Publications like mentioned above, and that is enough for some people/dealers.

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First thank you for the cretique. Secondly to your thoughts ,"apart from the fact that there are items like the Silver Party Badge, RZM marked, M1/120 (page 36)" Please give me your problems. I would be most interested.

Then you make this statement:

Metallwarenfabrik said:
This one, is identical to the €3500.- one being offered right now at Weitzes. you can compare the pictures any which way you want, and it`s clear that they are made using the same dies. Now why is this being sold as Original? i guess, because it`s pictured in Publications like mentioned above, and that is enough for some people/dealers.
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This badge as you show as comparison to the Weitzes piece is NOT shown in my book. The comparison of the badges was of a known copy with the Weitzes piece. It was clearly marked in the comparison as CJA Piece.
 
What did i mean? i meant Books like yours, full of assumptions, thoughts and ideas, backed up by the same names, (ie: Angolia) without a hint of period fact or period documentation. Nothing would give me greater pleasure to take it apart, page by page, and point out the mistakes, fakes and fantasy items, but, this is a Forum for HJ items, so for the mean time, i guess best to stick to this HJ golden Leafy badge.. Let me ask you, page 98, the badge with the 835 silver stamp, why would it have 835 on it? it`s plated, and badly plated, the plating is falling off, are Silver plated items usually stamped like this? are German items usually stamped like this ? All of the "Versions" you show, and variants, are not backed up by anything except what you say? This is a 2010 Book btw, not 1953. But a clear indication of why the Hobby is in ruins, if this is where the collectors are today.... SOS... with smoke rings....:thumbdown:
 
WELL THANK YOU AGAIN, and I repond to your observations:

Metallwarenfabrik said:
i guess best to stick to this HJ golden Leafy badge.. Let me ask you, page 98, the badge with the 835 silver stamp, why would it have 835 on it? it`s plated, and badly plated, the plating is falling off, are Silver plated items usually stamped like this? are German items usually stamped. like this ?"
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THE FIRST POINT, WHY STAMPED .835, WELL THIS WAS ONE OF THE SIVER GRADE MARKS USED IN GERMANY AT THE TIME. You will find that it was commonly used. So the piece is made of silver grade .835. IT IS NOT SILVER PLATED. It is mercury guilded. The colour is due to the copper in the silver patinating. You find this on Eagle Orders. You are correct that silver plated items are not marked in this manner. As to factual evidence, the funeral pillow of Dr Fritz Todt shows this form of badge on it. The other form of badge is that illistrated in Dohle, this is in the 3 volumes, 1940. 1943 and 1944. It is also the designe that is shown on the citation. This I think is hard evidence, period, of the badge in two distinct forms. Buy back to the badge you consider to be silver plated, this form is found in gold, silver guilt and zinc. These are shown in the book. The form as shown in picture 185 and 186 is clearly defined as Possible Fake. I would say, "you need to have it in hand to be sure".
 
A COLLECTORS GUIDE.. that's the name of the book. a book to Guide collectors. Surely you must realize that you have a responsibility to research everything you write to the fullest before publishing, in 2010 ! How can a book like this, filled with nothing but your opinion be helpful?
The funeral pillow as "factual evidence" my leg leg, you are trying to use a minute black and white photo as Proof?

• Give us one period mention that these badges were available in Gold, silver and Zinc ?

N° 185 and 186 are Common fakes, Fantasy mm too BM 1/120....they can be found on this forum, outted as Common fakes, so why you would write POSSIBLE fake is beyond me, and why you would need to have a Fantasy marked badge in hand in order to say for sure, is also beyond me. Evidence of a lack of research and knowledge about period makers marks here maybe ?
 
very interesting debate with some very concerning statements. As I am not familiar with this book and probably will not be a buyer , may we have the name of the author so I can investigate and make some determinations on what has been said here. Warlord must have a real name not just a cover


:canada1
 
Metallwarenfabrik said:
The funeral pillow as "factual evidence" my leg leg, you are trying to use a minute black and white photo as Proof?
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Well I have the original copy of the photo, this is of high clarity and 10 by 8. The picture is clear of the badge. As to the reason for the diferent materials the badge was constructed in is not recordered. This is not an unusual occurrance. The German Order was constructed in Tomback and silver. As to makers and marks this is something I have studied in some depth. You have not still addressed your observations on the silver grade mark and the fact you state the badge shown was silver plated and that this was poorly done and flaking.

As to the coment,POSSIBLE fake, I think this is a clear indication that I believe it to be wrong.

As to the first type shown, what more evidence do you require than the illitration in Dohle and it being on the document.

Again I say, "you need the piece in hand", observation of the photo of the funeral pillow will show the badge in clarity. Again your thoughts of the badge being silver plated. That again would prove the point. The silver grade, you should be aware of this mark and grade.

Again I extend the invertation to see the collection and make your n hand observations.

I have attached an award citation showing the first type

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You answer this question....

Metallwarenfabrik said:
• Give us one period mention that these badges were available in Gold, silver and Zinc ?
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With THIS ?
WARLORD said:
As to the reason for the different materials the badge was constructed in is not recorded. This is not an unusual occurrence.
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So you reached this assumption, wrote about, authenticated and Pictured three variants as Genuine, based on what was "not an unusual occurrence" ?
:confused1::confused1: The wife's correct, i do smoke too much pot.

When i finally get round to finishing my book, i could, based on your statement here, have a certain Mr B, in Birmingham, make me a handful of variations of a fantasy badge .. and publish them all as being Quote: Extremely scarce, and mumble on as to the "fact" that originals are known in Window putty, Plaster of Paris and play dough... after all, i am sure that all three were used in 1935.

I am not going to continue wasting Forum-space here and argue with you about your Published personal opinion, because when i take the rest of the book into consideration,that's all it is, your personal opinion. Nothing wrong with that, you are allowed one, but to publish it as Fact, in 2011..... :confused1: and be arguing about it online.....? no, i`ll pass for the moment.
to be continued... just not on this forum.
 
Well I read your thoughts with interest. Again I ask you to comment on your assumptions of the badge being silver plated and this is flaking of. Again, the silver grade .835. Also the point of period photo of the funeral pillow.

Innuendos to:

Metallwarenfabrik said:
...have a certain Mr B, in Birmingham, make me a handful of variations of a fantasy badge .. and publish them all as being Quote: Extremely scarce, and mumble on as to the "fact" that originals are known in Window putty, Plaster of Paris and play dough... after all, i am sure that all three were used in 1935.
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These are sure the thinking of a person who maybe not quite with it. Again I invite you to visit and view the collection and the photos. If this not be the case, I would be happy to bring them on my next trip to your region, I take it is The Switz and you can view there.

As an aside I take it you have these in your collection to study? We then can compare the items, back to my old saying, "have to have in hand."

Your comments on the document I posted, clearly showing the first pattern badge. The group this came with is with out doubt original. Came from the family.
 
Okay JOE have done some homework and now totally understand where you are coming from here. I encourage all members here to attend the forum WAF and type in CRISTOPHER AILSBY for a detailed look at what is going on. It would seem many members there have done an old fashioned book burning of anything titles by this individual now banned on WAF which ain't easy to do.


:canada1
 
WARLORD said:
Again I invite you to visit and view the collection and the photos. If this not be the case, I would be happy to bring them on my next trip to your region, I take it is The Switz and you can view there.
..... We then can compare the items, back to my old saying, "have to have in hand."
.
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No amount of visiting, comparing badges and having badges in hand can make up for the lack of Evidence in your HJ Golden badge article. It`s not just a lack, it`s a total non existence of anything period, anything documented, anything mentioned...anything! All your three badge article is, is your own Opinion based on having these badges in hand, supported by the notion that because other badges/awards were available in different materials, therefore these were too. When we look at other similar awards of status, the Golden Party Badge, (sorry to break it to you, but they were only made in gold washed (some same fire gilded) metal, and not in Silver) for example, with a possible 22,000 made, (each member may have had more sets, 22,000 could easily be 50-80,000) and all made in the same metals, then why should we believe that these, 250-400 awarded special oak leafy badges were made in Solid Gold, silver and Zinc ? If we were contemplating an award like the ISA, yes, something like this if we leave out the solid gold and silver? It is just not reasonable, and there are no parallels we can draw between items of this High Status that were made in Metals ranging from Solid Gold through to zinc, it just did not happen, there are no such parallels, the idea is not realistic.

• Or maybe you can give us an example of a very High Class award, that is known to have been manufactured in Solid Gold, Silver and then Zinc?

If this was your opinion based on a few similar period facts, OK, it would be worth debating, but it`s just your opinion.

WARLORD said:
As to a list, that is something I am working on now. Got about 30.
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• Is there any particular reason that none of these 30 names are mentioned in your Article ?
 
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