Early HJ man with very rare knife variation

[Strumble69]

Hello all
Just got this photo in. I sold it 5 years ago and had the chance to buy it back so I did.
His dagger is the very rare variation where the handle has been enscribed with a HJ flag and a pattern. Many poeple said these knives were fake, well here we have perfect evidence they existed.


Anymore insight would be really appreciated
Thank you

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[Garry]

Yes, a great photo and thanks for posting it. A rough version of it was shown in the following thread which discusses these early knives:

Hitler Youth Honour Daggers and bayonets with engraved pommels? | Hitler Youth knife and dagger

Have a good look at the photograph where the boys is wearing the knife. In fact it is a short bayonet: look at the upper part, the "head", where a sort of "eye" is visible. Hardly visible, but it is! I do not know the word for it, but such an eye is also present in a regular bayonet! So, what...

www.hj-research.com

My issue back then and now is the label that certain US dealers attached to these knives in order to, in my opinion, hike the price as much as possible. They called (and still call) them "HJ Honour daggers/knives". As you'll see in the above thread, there is no period evidence whatsoever that would allow such a conclusion. The knives themselves did exist but whether the myriad of different designs found today are modern or period is a completely different matter. There was a period in early 1933 where all and sundry were manufacturing items for the Hitler Youth whether they matched the official item in terms of quality/design or not and I think that this is where the knife comes from. A short-lived, unofficial item sure but not an "honour knife".

 

[ewan0939]

Hello all
Just got this photo in. I sold it 5 years ago and had the chance to buy it back so I did.
His dagger is the very rare variation where the handle has been enscribed with a HJ flag and a pattern. Many poeple said these knives were fake, well here we have perfect evidence they existed.


Anymore insight would be really appreciated
Thank you

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Beautiful photo. Thank you for posting it, the detail is superb.

 

[KleinerHäwelmann]

Hi Strumble69,

the sidearm the young man was wearing looks to me like a typical german "Dress Bayonet", in german called a "Ausgehseitengewehr",
sometimes also called "Extraseitengewehr".

These edged weapons were not attachable like a normal bayonet.
As a rule, such pieces were purchased privately and they did not comply with official dress codes, but were accepted.

* What is that strand of silver ("Litze") that the young man wore under the triangle of territory ("Gebietsdreieck"), can someone write something about it..?

Thank you for sharing the photos!
To sorry, more questions than answers...

Micha

P.S. If you like to search for "Ausgehseitengewehr HJ" some examples show up, it is a multifaceted topic, as always in this complex of topics...

 

[Strumble69]

Yes, a great photo and thanks for posting it. A rough version of it was shown in the following thread which discusses these early knives:

Hitler Youth Honour Daggers and bayonets with engraved pommels? | Hitler Youth knife and dagger

Have a good look at the photograph where the boys is wearing the knife. In fact it is a short bayonet: look at the upper part, the "head", where a sort of "eye" is visible. Hardly visible, but it is! I do not know the word for it, but such an eye is also present in a regular bayonet! So, what...

www.hj-research.com

My issue back then and now is the label that certain US dealers attached to these knives in order to, in my opinion, hike the price as much as possible. They called (and still call) them "HJ Honour daggers/knives". As you'll see in the above thread, there is no period evidence whatsoever that would allow such a conclusion. The knives themselves did exist but whether the myriad of different designs found today are modern or period is a completely different matter. There was a period in early 1933 where all and sundry were manufacturing items for the Hitler Youth whether they matched the official item in terms of quality/design or not and I think that this is where the knife comes from. A short-lived, unofficial item sure but not an "honour knife".

Youre brilliant Gary, thank you, as always

 

[Garry]

Hi Strumble69,

the sidearm the young man was wearing looks to me like a typical german "Dress Bayonet", in german called a "Ausgehseitengewehr",
sometimes also called "Extraseitengewehr".

These edged weapons were not attachable like a normal bayonet.
As a rule, such pieces were purchased privately and they did not comply with official dress codes, but were accepted.

* What is that strand of silver ("Litze") that the young man wore under the triangle of territory ("Gebietsdreieck"), can someone write something about it..?

Thank you for sharing the photos!
To sorry, more questions than answers...

Micha

P.S. If you like to search for "Ausgehseitengewehr HJ" some examples show up, it is a multifaceted topic, as always in this complex of topics...

Not true and not complex. The knife and scabbard in the photo is attached to the belt in the same way as the standard HJ knife and also in the position that was usual prior to May 1934 when the carrying position was changed to rear left. The Ausgehseitengewehr is a totally different item (see RJF Wachgefolgschaft).

The Litze is the Traditionslitze and was a golden colour. If you search the forum for Traditionslitze or tradition stripe you'll find the qualification criterion.

 

[KleinerHäwelmann]

Thanks Garry,

every day, something new...

Stolen from another forum:


Micha

"The Litze is the Traditionslitze and was a golden colour. If you search the forum for Traditionslitze or tradition stripe you'll find the
qualification criterion."

I was not aware about this, thank you very much.

Micha
P.S. Scanning the old photos for example the "Achselschnur" of the "Adjutants" of the Generals are a problem, sometimes they look "black",
mostyl they were "silver", called "antik-silber".
I know this problem from my grandfather's old pictures within the RAD.

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[wilhelm saris]

Thanks Garry,

every day, something new...

Stolen from another forum:


Micha

"The Litze is the Traditionslitze and was a golden colour. If you search the forum for Traditionslitze or tradition stripe you'll find the
qualification criterion."

I was not aware about this, thank you very much.

Micha
P.S. Scanning the old photos for example the "Achselschnur" of the "Adjutants" of the Generals are a problem, sometimes they look "black",
mostyl they were "silver", called "antik-silber".
I know this problem from my grandfather's old pictures within the RAD.

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you could buy some books where the subjects are dealt with you ask about.
The Traditionslitze is included in my "Handbook of the Hitler-Jugend", aiguillettes
are dealt with in my book "Aiguillettes of the third Reich".
I do not say you should buy persé any of my books. Some are hard to get since
Bender Publishing ended its business.

 

[Pimpf359]

The thick strand under the triangle is also interesting. It seems to be a tradition for pre-1933 members, but not how it should be. Things weren't always according to the rules.