Greetings guys, I look forward to learning more information from this site. I'm looking for some information and I believe this is the right site to help. I have a DJ/HJ ausweis and am trying to find out some information. My questions are these.. What oberbann group would Mitte Thuringen be? The color of his sigrune, and possibly what shoulder strap he would wear? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Rose
Identity card - Gebiet Thüringen Oberbanne?
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Hi there,
Your ID won't show the Oberbann but rather the Bann/Jungbann and Gefolgschaft/Fähnlein. The Oberbann was a structure above the Bann/Jungbann level as follows:
HJ-Gebiet Thüringen (until the deprecation of the Oberbann as a structure*) contained the following Oberbanne:
Oberbann 1 Mittelthüringen
Oberbann 2 Südthüringen
Oberbann 3 Nordwestthüringen
Each of the Oberbanne contained a number of Banne/Jungbanne and your chap will have been a member of one of them.
This is how things worked using Bann 5 Danzig as the example:
*An announcement was made by Reichsjugendführer Schirach at a leader conference in Traben-Trarbach (17th-18th April 1934) that the HJ Oberbann and BdM Gau were to be dissolved. Orders were subsequently issued on the 2nd of May and the 27th of October 1934 respectively. The Oberbanne were to be fully dissolved by the 1st of July 1934 and the Gaue by the 1st of Jan 1935. The ranks of HJ Oberbannführer and BdM-Gauführerin remained in use. The work previously carried out at the Oberbann and Gau was delegated up to the Gebiet and Obergau level.
Your ID won't show the Oberbann but rather the Bann/Jungbann and Gefolgschaft/Fähnlein. The Oberbann was a structure above the Bann/Jungbann level as follows:
HJ-Gebiet Thüringen (until the deprecation of the Oberbann as a structure*) contained the following Oberbanne:
Oberbann 1 Mittelthüringen
Oberbann 2 Südthüringen
Oberbann 3 Nordwestthüringen
Each of the Oberbanne contained a number of Banne/Jungbanne and your chap will have been a member of one of them.
This is how things worked using Bann 5 Danzig as the example:
Bann 5 Danzig (along with two further Banne) formed:
|
Oberbann 4 Danzig-Westpreußen which, along with 3 other Oberbanne, formed:
|
Gebiet 1 Ostland which, along with three further Gebiete, formed:
|
Obergebiet Ost.
Are you able to post a photo of your ID?|
Oberbann 4 Danzig-Westpreußen which, along with 3 other Oberbanne, formed:
|
Gebiet 1 Ostland which, along with three further Gebiete, formed:
|
Obergebiet Ost.
*An announcement was made by Reichsjugendführer Schirach at a leader conference in Traben-Trarbach (17th-18th April 1934) that the HJ Oberbann and BdM Gau were to be dissolved. Orders were subsequently issued on the 2nd of May and the 27th of October 1934 respectively. The Oberbanne were to be fully dissolved by the 1st of July 1934 and the Gaue by the 1st of Jan 1935. The ranks of HJ Oberbannführer and BdM-Gauführerin remained in use. The work previously carried out at the Oberbann and Gau was delegated up to the Gebiet and Obergau level.
Thank you for response. Here are photos of the Ausweis. The stamp over his photo says:
Deutsches Jungvolk d.HJ
Fähnlein: 16/95
Ohrdruf /Thüringen
I do appreciate your time, I've asked other forums with not much luck, then stumbled on this one. I collect wehrpass, so this is a document I'm not all that familiar with. I'd love to figure out what his sigrune color (if it was before red became standard) and possibly his shoulder strap. These are the best photos I have until it's in hand. Also, I've had a very hard time translating his street address/name maybe someone has better eyes at it.
Deutsches Jungvolk d.HJ
Fähnlein: 16/95
Ohrdruf /Thüringen
I do appreciate your time, I've asked other forums with not much luck, then stumbled on this one. I collect wehrpass, so this is a document I'm not all that familiar with. I'd love to figure out what his sigrune color (if it was before red became standard) and possibly his shoulder strap. These are the best photos I have until it's in hand. Also, I've had a very hard time translating his street address/name maybe someone has better eyes at it.
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Being from 1937, this ID card is obviously not the one that he would originally (in 1934) have been issued with but if we assume that he had his picture taken specifically for this new ID then the sleeve patch we see there would have been the standard white on red. The shoulder strap would have had a stitched "95" in white.
In 1934 he was apparently assigned to Fähnlein "95/41" but this translates as "Fähnlein 95 of Jungbann 41". Jungbann 1/41 Memel and 2/41 Takehnen were around 1500km away so this is clearly a typo with the correct unit being Fähnlein 41/95. However, when he joined in 1934 his Fähnlein would have had a different number as "41/95" is the post-1935 numbering system. Prior to that the unit numbers were 4/III/95, 2/II/95 etc so it's possible that the person who filled out this chap's new ID card simply added the original unit as 41/95 instead of 4/I/95. I'll try to confirm that Ohrdruf fell within the latter in 1934 when he joined.
Sleeve patch in 1934:
In 1934 he was assigned to Jungbann 1/95 Gotha which fell within Oberbann 3 Nordwestthüringen. The sleeve patch colours for Oberbann 3 were green with white sigrune but as this boy didn't join the DJ until Aug 1934 (post the deprecation of the Oberbann - see bottom of post 2) we can't say definitively which colours he would have worn at the time. It would have been either green/white from old stocks or red/white if sufficient of that colour was already available or indeed no patch at all if red/white was not yet available.
Such great information! Thank you so much for helping me out with this ID, it will help me do a small write up on him for my collection. Is there a Nordwest patch? In my searches I've hardly been able to find Mitte Thüringen. I really do appreciate your help, and patience.
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Absolutely no problem. We're always glad to help.
No, the Oberbann was represented on the uniform by a colour only. In the case of the DJ it was (pre-Aug 1934) the sleeve patch that showed the colour of the Oberbann to which the wearer's unit belonged:
Oberbann 1 Red
Oberbann 2 Yellow
Oberbann 3 Green
Oberbann 4 Blue
Oberbann 5 Black
Oberbann 6 White
The area triangle worn above the rune patch, in your case, "Mitte Thüringen" translates as Obergebiet Mitte, Gebiet Thüringen.
Here is how Gebiet Thüringen was organised at the time the ID was issued:
Just going back to the unit he joined in 1934:
I see from orders dated 24.2.1935 (post the change to the numbering convention for youth units) that there was no Fähnlein within Jungbann 95 with a number higher than 28 at that time. With that in mind, this chap cannot have been assigned to Fähnlein 41/95 in 1934. As part of that reorganisation in 1935, Fähnlein 4/I/95 was redesignated as 4/95. The chances that the guy who filled out this boy's new ID in 1937 misread that and wrote "41/95" are pretty strong I reckon and would explain the impossible Fähnlein number "41/95".
No, the Oberbann was represented on the uniform by a colour only. In the case of the DJ it was (pre-Aug 1934) the sleeve patch that showed the colour of the Oberbann to which the wearer's unit belonged:
Oberbann 1 Red
Oberbann 2 Yellow
Oberbann 3 Green
Oberbann 4 Blue
Oberbann 5 Black
Oberbann 6 White
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The area triangle worn above the rune patch, in your case, "Mitte Thüringen" translates as Obergebiet Mitte, Gebiet Thüringen.
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Here is how Gebiet Thüringen was organised at the time the ID was issued:
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Just going back to the unit he joined in 1934:
I see from orders dated 24.2.1935 (post the change to the numbering convention for youth units) that there was no Fähnlein within Jungbann 95 with a number higher than 28 at that time. With that in mind, this chap cannot have been assigned to Fähnlein 41/95 in 1934. As part of that reorganisation in 1935, Fähnlein 4/I/95 was redesignated as 4/95. The chances that the guy who filled out this boy's new ID in 1937 misread that and wrote "41/95" are pretty strong I reckon and would explain the impossible Fähnlein number "41/95".
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I would really like to know if he went on into service since he would've been 18 in 42 it could be possible. Not sure if that's something that can be found in records, other than Bundesarchiv but I'd certainly love anything you might find. I did look through volksbund and Fold3 to see if he had been a casualty, but he was not listed. That leads me to believe that if he did serve, he at least survived.
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Okay. Hopefully something will turn up.
Here is his father Ernst Töpfer listed in 1936. He was a carpenter.
Still there in 1950:
Here is his father Ernst Töpfer listed in 1936. He was a carpenter.
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Still there in 1950:
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