Need Help! Armband HJ with tag

[ankroma]

Good day, dear friends. I found this armband, which is sold as original. There is an original tag, but I am confused by the fact that the manufacturer's number is not printed on the tag. What can you say about this? Is this item original or not? Thank you in advance!

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[bertl59]

Hi
i see nothing wrong with this Armband .

 

[ankroma]

Hi
i see nothing wrong with this Armband .

Thank you for your answer! And is it normal that there is no number between the RZM sign and the diamond? Thanks in advance!

 

[Jack]

Hi there,

As Bertrand said, this armband is a standard Bevo piece, so one of the most common original ones.
To the RZM tag. The manufacturer had to stamp his RZM code number. These tags had to be ordered in advance from the RZM in small batches and paid for cash on delivery. On the tag shown, both the code A4 (A for Ausrüstung/equipment, 4 for Textilabzeichenhersteller/textile badge manufacturer) and the tax letter B (for 1 Pfennig fee) match the requirements for an armband.
What I'm missing here, is the serial number at the bottom. That leaves me with a question mark about the tag. But that doesn't change anything about the armband itself.

 

[Jack]

First one is an early blue tag for an armband, second one for a shoulderstrap but anyway, both have the serial number. These were always listed on the RZM invoices for checking purposes (third pic).

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[ankroma]

Hi there,

As Bertrand said, this armband is a standard Bevo piece, so one of the most common original ones.
To the RZM tag. The manufacturer had to stamp his RZM code number. These tags had to be ordered in advance from the RZM in small batches and paid for cash on delivery. On the tag shown, both the code A4 (A for Ausrüstung/equipment, 4 for Textilabzeichenhersteller/textile badge manufacturer) and the tax letter B (for 1 Pfennig fee) match the requirements for an armband.
What I'm missing here, is the serial number at the bottom. That leaves me with a question mark about the tag. But that doesn't change anything about the armband itself.

Hi Jack, Thanks for your reply. So I take it that this tag does not belong to this armband? Because if it does not have a number stamp on it, then it could not have been attached to this armband. Am I understanding your thoughts correctly?

 

[Jack]

The missing manufacturer code number may just be negligence. I have already mentioned the missing serial number (e.g. the J No. xxx). A4 and B, on the other hand, fit. I've also seen some without a serial number, but I can't say whether they are genuine. I wonder how they should be billed (see the invoice shown).
But again, that doesn't change the originality of the armband.

 

[ankroma]

I understand you, Jack. But in general, to be honest, if we talk about the Germans, it is difficult to believe in simple negligence. Although, of course, anything can happen. Perhaps, the highly respected experts in this matter will help us clarify this issue. I would be very interested to understand the origin of this tag, and whether such a tag without a number could be present on this armband.

 

[Jack]

The green RZM sticker at the bottom of the invoice translates as follows: The (RZM) tags supplied are registered to your company. Official party items bearing these tags therefore identify your company as the manufacturer. For this reason, identification tags as well as stock tags may not be passed on to other manufacturing companies.

It is therefore essential for me that the tags had such a serial number. This meant that the RZM could find out who the manufacturer was if necessary, even without a manufacturer code.

And as for the mistakes, there were plenty of them. Even with the RZM. I have shown a document in the corresponding section with incorrect manufacturer names, incorrect place names, etc. It wasn't easy even for them to keep track.

That's all I can help you with on the subject. Hopefully others will comment. Good luck.

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[ankroma]

Well, thank you very much Jack for your time. Hopefully someone on the forum can add to this thread with some thoughts on this tag and the item in general. Good luck!

 

[Garry]

Yes, as Jack says, the tag should have the manufacturer number A4/ XXX and a serial number below that.

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It is possible that tags were applied without these numbers but that would of course have been the exception. Another thing to consider is that the tag on the armband is a modern fake or NOS tag that was slapped on last week, last year etc to increase the value for those collectors who like to see the RZM tag attached. To be honest I would concentrate more on the armband than the tag.

 

[ankroma]

Yes, as Jack says, the tag should have the manufacturer number A4/ XXX and a serial number below that.

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It is possible that tags were applied without these numbers but that would of course have been the exception. Another thing to consider is that the tag on the armband is a modern fake or NOS tag that was slapped on last week, last year etc to increase the value for those collectors who like to see the RZM tag attached. To be honest I would concentrate more on the armband than the tag.

Hello, Harry! I understand what you want to say. Regarding this tag, I could assume that it has no number because when the war ended, there were many tags without numbers left in warehouses. And after the war, enterprising owners of armbands could simply buy such a tag at the market and then glue it to the armband itself. But this is only my assumption. In general, I found several more examples of such copies on the Internet. Here, I will post two of them here. What can you say about this? Thank you in advance!

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[Jack]

Regarding this tag, I could assume that it has no number because when the war ended, there were many tags without numbers left in warehouses

No, that was not how the system worked.

The manufacturer with RZM authorisation ordered the tags from the RZM authority in Munich for the number of items he wanted to produce (in the documents I have, for a period of one or two weeks). That was no more than a few dozen. RZM then sent him the tags requested, which had a consecutive serial letter and number, by cash on delivery. These numbers were added to the RZM invoice. Using this serial number on an item, the RZM was always able to identify the manufacturer, even in the unlikely case that the maker had not entered their RZM number code on the tag. That's the one with the green sticker on the third picture of my post above..

I don't like the tags without a serial number, but again, I can't prove that they are fake or are not. The regulations I have show always tags with that numbering system.
Otherwise, I completely agree with Garry. For some buyers, the tag is the ultimate proof of the authenticity of an item, so it increases the price, whether genuine or not (and forgeries existed as early as 1934, mentioned in the RZM-Mitteilungsblätter, even more so today). The definitive authenticity of an item would be much more important to me.

 

[ankroma]

So, if I understand correctly, all tags that do not have a number are fakes. Because it simply could not be otherwise. So, based on this, the correct tag is only the one that has the manufacturer's number and serial number with a letter in front. There can be no exceptions. It's just strange that this was not noticed before me, because I saw several items in various online stores with this tag without a number. And this seems a little strange to me. But, I think that anything is possible. Below I will attach a photo of a real and correct tag, as well as a fake without a number, so that the difference is visible. By the way, I came across another bandage with the same tag, but with a number. Perhaps, also a fake. I am attaching a photo below.

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[Jack]

I don't like the tags without a serial number, but again, I can't prove that they are fake or are not. The regulations I have show always tags with that numbering system.

 

[ankroma]

Sorry for being persistent Jack, but my last question to you as someone who knows about these armbands is: is there a chance that this tag on this armband is the original? Or is that completely out of the question? Thanks in advance and sorry for being persistent.

 

[ankroma]

Two more examples from two different online stores.

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[Jack]

There is an RZM regulation on numbered tags and evidence such as company invoices that this is exactly how it was done. Proof of the authenticity of the unnumbered tags would be a corresponding instruction by the RZM that such a simplified procedure was permitted in later years - because the tags are red and in Antiqua, or invoices from the RZM to the companies in question. Until then, in my opinion, this must simply remain unanswered, no matter how unsatisfactory it may be for the collector.

Perhaps you could also take a look at the relevant section in the forum here. There you will also find this question, also unanswered, as well as examples of forged tags with numbers.
My last point: even an original tag would not prove that it has been there since the time of manufacture. In this respect, I can't see the cricial significance.

 

[ankroma]

There is an RZM regulation on numbered tags and evidence such as company invoices that this is exactly how it was done. Proof of the authenticity of the unnumbered tags would be a corresponding instruction by the RZM that such a simplified procedure was permitted in later years - because the tags are red and in Antiqua, or invoices from the RZM to the companies in question. Until then, in my opinion, this must simply remain unanswered, no matter how unsatisfactory it may be for the collector.

Perhaps you could also take a look at the relevant section in the forum here. There you will also find this question, also unanswered, as well as examples of forged tags with numbers.
My last point: even an original tag would not prove that it has been there since the time of manufacture. In this respect, I can't see the cricial significance.

Yes, Jack, I think we still won't be able to determine anything clear from the tag. Well, perhaps the most important thing is that the bandage itself is genuine. I think at least there are no questions about that. Well, we can leave the question of the tag open, and if any of the respected experts has something to add, I personally will be extremely interested to read and of course I will be heartily grateful for any information.