Deutsches Jungvolk M1/66 shooting badges are modern fakes?

[Wim Vangossum]

Hi everyone,

Can somemone explain when exactly the DJ shooting award was instituted? I suppose it was created togheter with the first two "lower" classes of the HJ shooting award?

Reason I ask this is because the fact that the manufacturer Fritz Kohm M1/66 lost his RZM license in November 1935 while there are IMO good, original DJ shooting awards made by this firm????


Regards, Wim

Admin Edit: in light of the information discussed in the thread I changed the thread title. Good work chaps

 

[Garry]

Hi Wim,

The DJ shooting badge was introduced in 1939. See: HJ-Wiki page for exact date of introduction.

Interesting info on the M1/66 badges though. I'm not personally aware of any fakes having been found with that MM. Anyone else?

 

[Wim Vangossum]

That's very interesting Garry. I've send some pictures from a dealers site to J. Rivett and he says this example is a fake. I know he can sometimes judge a bit quick but togehter with that out of business date it deserves a closer look :001_huh:


Regards, Wim

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[stuart]

hi wim

i have never had a prob with these badges they have all the correct items i would look for in one of these badges inc the back, even the slight speckle in the white enamel,

 

[Wim Vangossum]

I agree with you, Stu. They look textbook like an original DJ shooting badge has to look. Don't understand why Jo called them wrong. There most be a raisonable explanation for it. Maybe the RZM number was re- issued for another manufacturer, or the firm of Fritz Kohm came in business again. The fact that they went out of business comes right out the RZM mitteilungsblatt.

Regards, Wim

 

[Wim Vangossum]

Hi everyone,

I hate it to bring bad news but some more research came to light concerning the maker Fritz Kohm. Based on my own files I already came to know that maker M1/66 is not found as a standard regular party pin. I have a party pin mm M1/66 in my own collection but besides the less or more standerd front, the reverse has still many transitional influence. Note this pin is made of iron and has transitional looking features. According to Jo Rivett there exist no party pins by this maker with farther reverse standardisation like you see on this paticular DJ shooting award and is normal for the period after 1935. The green discoloration on the pin is found on other fakes made in the 70's by Morgini. It is not found on genuine enamel awards unless they got a new re-soldered pinplate. One of these perfect fakes is the Hitlerbewegung badge maked with the "B" mm. I have such a fake myself and the enamel work can easy concur with period enamel. The dealer I took this pictures from (Hiscoll) removed the item of his site by yesterday.

I know the chance is small but if there is somebody with two DJ shooting awards, this maker and another one, he can make some more comparising work. This is not very happy news but it's imprtant to find out the truth. I received a PDF file from Jo with all the firms that went out of business with the standardization around 1935 and will do some research myself

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[stuart]

hi wim

the reverse on the party badge is very differant from the reverse on the shooting badge, especially the maker makr and rzm mark

 

[Wim Vangossum]

hi wim

the reverse on the party badge is very differant from the reverse on the shooting badge, especially the maker makr and rzm mark

Hi Stu,

Well that's exactly one of the points. The party pin shown is from around 1935 when the RZM bacame a bigger player in the rules. A complete standarized party pin would have had a reverse more like the DJ badge. But because Fritz Kohm lost his license he never came to the standarization like in the years 36-37 etc...

Thats the anomaly. According to the RZM guideline magazine the firm stopped working under RZM controle on 19/11/1935. The evoluation of their party pin production confirm this statement. Their exist no party pins made by M1/66 during the late 30's.

This is all a bit confusing, I know. But it deserves some concerns just like the fact that is brought under attention by Garry in another thread: the fact that there are so many different makers of the Golden HJ shooting award, an extremaly rare badge.

Regards Wim

 

[Wim Vangossum]

Here's the reverse of a HJ membership pin by this maker. Note the sloppy hand written style of the letters; a left over feature from the early days. I highly doubt that there exist later M1/66 HJ membership pins with the more uniform written style maker marks...

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[Jo Rivett]

Hi Wim
Not an easy Makers mark to find at all, and when encountered, it will be similar to the Karl Hensler writing on the reverse, hand done and sloppy. (As lots were during 1933-1935) Also one of the very few makers that i know about, that used basic Metal to make badges instead of Nickel-silver or Bronze in 1934/5. (There are others that used Metal, but later on, ie: well into the RZM period)

Anyway, Facts are always better than 1000 posts of opinions, and the facts are, that Fritz lost his RZM number M1/66 as you have stated, on 19 November 1935, along with a few others from his area as well as two Sub-contractors in that area.
More Facts are also that the number M1/66 was NOT re-issued or allowed to be used by anyone else.
More Facts, are that by 1939 (when these Badges were introduced?) the RZM was up and running smoothly, with the integration of Licensed makers in Austria and Gablonz .... so by this time, i would say that 99% of the teething problems that the RZM had in the early days (Fakers, black market etc) were all ironed out.

Pic below, from the ausgabe 31, 7th December 1935 below, page 340, showing the Metallabzeichen M1/ numbers that were lost that week, along with 2 M2/ numbers,

Even without knowing these facts, the pictures speak loud and clear, the discoloring on the reverse where the pin has been soldered on is typical of 70`s fakes, and can be found on most Morigi early versions that are made from whatever material this is. Pic # 1 is this M1/66 badge together with a fake Hitlerbewegung turned into negative. The purple dots indicate the Discoloring that i am talking about, which is not normal, and typical of fakes from that time.
Jo

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[Garry]

Very interesting discussion. As you say chaps, going on hard evidence there should be no M1/66 DJ shooting badges.

 

[Jo Rivett]

Very interesting discussion. As you say chaps, going on hard evidence there should be no M1/66 DJ shooting badges. By the way, the reference for the introduction of the badge is 'Amtliches Nachrichtenblatt 7/11' dated 16.6.1939

Facts are always the best way to go, IF they can be found, which is hard sometimes. But collectors will believe what they want i guess. The Fantasy Adolf Hitler 1933 badges that have the mark RZM M1/129 on the reverse are still being dubbed Original when the RZM announcements tell us that Seiler only received the number M1/129 late in 1938, at the same time the Austrian RZM M- numbers were being issued.

But you know, the Fakers know all this Period info, that's why they chose numbers that were either never issued or lost early on for their fakes. M1/4 is probably the best Example, along with M1/33 M1/133...the list could go on.

So i guess, to conclude on this DJ badge marked M1/66, anyone who still believes it is Original, must present black and white Information that the number was re-issued, or given back to the maker. Which is wasn't, and is not mentioned again in any RZM announcement after 7 December 1935, so that will be a hard task for a collector. There is the "other" option though, Denial

 

[Jo Rivett]

Oh Dear, LST just sold one
http://www.lakesidetrader.com/pics/M-2323d.jpg

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[Heinrich]

It's a shame that people are being swindled and it is good that members can get advice here on HJF.

 

[Jo Rivett]

It's a shame that people are being swindled ....

Hmmmmmmm, now this is a tuff call. I would not say Swindled, the problem is that not many dealers like to look for "facts", all they care about is if the general consensus is OK, then thats enough for them. In this case, the facts tell us the exact date that M1/66 had his number withdrawn, and that date makes it impossible for him to have made these. What is needed from all collectors is Understanding and patience. Patience to Research for a long time, and only find 1 usable fact per year maybe, and the understanding to accept that lots of what we thought we knew, can be Debunked using only History, Facts and common sense.

 

[Paul Ayerst]

I informed LAKESIDE about this badge sale and he was receptive to the problem and trust he has done the right things here. If anyone on this forum bought the badge please let us know what has happened.