Enamel sign. BDM Untergau 198 Charlottenburg-Spandau

Forums New posts
schuere

schuere

Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
133
Thanks Received
28
Location
Belgium - O-Vl
Hi,

these are discussed earlier, but I have this sign for many years.
And I know from original 1933-1945 photo these signs have existed, can't find photo..
From what I see my sign has a different font, you can see it good as axample on the B from BDM , also my fonts are in some relief.
Now I wonder what you think of it..



Link :


You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Last edited by a moderator:
I think the sign is okay. Indeed the B from BDM differs slightly, but just.
The reverse can tell more, but is not always 100% when identifying.
There should be a relief!!

The official sizes: 21.0 x 30.0 cm (with the ones I have inspected).
Most often there is no manufacturers name.
 
Thank for the replies!

Here some photos of the back.
Size is exact 21cm x 30cm , and no manufactures name on it.

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
From the 1936 and 1937 OB:

You don't have permission to view attachments.


and from the 1938 OB:

You don't have permission to view attachments.


Seems that the brackets around the location were discontinued in 1937/38 but the OB is known to contain mistakes so perhaps we shouldn't read anything into this. These new signs began to be delivered to units in chronological order from Jan 1935 and cost RM6,95 (RM2,97 for JM-Untergau signs). They originally had a sticker on the back showing how to affix them correctly because obviously, being enamel they were prone to cracking if the corner screws were overtightened or if the signs were held in place by nails (forbidden by the regulation). 10 years isn't a long time in the life of an enamel sign but many of them would have been removed and reinstalled a few times as the headquarters of the units were relocated over the years so perhaps that is the reason for the large amount of damage to the corners relative to the amount of time they were in use.

Enamel sign collectors say that most fakes come from India but I don't know whether they would bother with youth signs as it is such a small market but you never know. Some HJ collectors say that these are coming from Poland. I have no idea but general collectors of enamel signs say that one should always look for two things: the position of damage to the enamel i.e. fakers often damage the enamel to "age" it in positions where the overall appearance does not suffer. This way, prices can be maximised. They also say that the edges of letters and designs should be raised, clean and sharp.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
I covered such sign from Marburg in my book about such signs. At that moment
hardly fakes did exist (yes, there were). The larger numbers came some years
after the publishing of my book (2009). Many fakes come from Poland, anyway
eastern countries.

The image from the OB 1938 is also in my book (page 162); the Marburg sign
on page 163.
The raising of symbols and letters is caused by the number of layers of enameling.​

You don't have permission to view attachments.
 
What is also of interest is what the reverse of these enamel signs should look like. Some processes only seem to enamel the front of the sign where others completely cover the metal front and back. I would imagine that an enamel sign designed for constant exposure to the elements like an Untergau sign would be fully coated but I don't know for sure.
 
I put - BDM untergau - in "google picture search" and got 4 hits showing these signs.
I personally would be very careful, especially if the middle (showing the Emblem) is in top condition
and only the areas around the holes are rusty.
Fakers are getting better and better.
Just my personal, overcautious opinion though.
 
christianlohmann said:
I personally would be very careful,
especially if the middle (showing the Emblem) is in top condition
and only the areas around the holes are rusty.
Click to expand...

With over 90% of all observed signs from all kinds of organizations
(during research for my book about signs) the symbols as eagles
or signs of an organization, were in a perfect condition. Some had
damages, yes as this was caused often by improper handling. The
reverse is often best to identify being a fake or original. I will not
explain this further, as fakers also do see these posts at forums!!

Note that before my book was published in 2009 (and 2-3 years of
research) not many signs were faked. The load of the fakes came
since 2014/2015 and later. It is obvious fakers may have thought
there was much interest for these signs by collectors and as always,
what is asked for, is faked.
 
If I'm reading his posts correctly I think Wim likes it :thumb: So do I for what it's worth but I have zero experience with these signs and can only say what the obverse should look like and the size.
 
I am 99,9% sure, that I have fond exactly your BDM enamel sign on the internet. It has i.m.h.o. the same damages.

You don't have permission to view attachments.


and here is the link: DIENSTSTELLENSCHILD „BDM UNTERGAU 198“ | Berliner Auktionshaus LTD

NOTE in the text: neuzeitliche Emaillierung auf zeitgenössischem Schild.

Sorry if I bring sad news, but I have to show what I found. :sad:

Michael :denmark




 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Must be the same wall plaque and not a second version.
It is practically impossible to make the same damages,
as the enamel splinters when handled with a tool. This
NEVER can be exactly the same. Repro, who knows. I
am not for 100% convinced. But the reverse bothers
me in some ways.

Maybe the seller thought it to be a fake, as he heard of
lots of other plaques in existance these days. And so
he said "neuzeitlich" enameling. The methods are in
some ways different.
 
Got some more details of the back, how closer I look to the back the more convinced I am that the damage/rust/.. at the back is not faked and really just aged.

You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
You don't have permission to view attachments.
 

Attachments

    You don't have permission to view attachments.
Fine pics of the back, but they also wrote: auf zeitgenössischem Schild.

Michael :denmark




Expand
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top